MXS races great; rides poor

[JETZcorp]

Let me start off by saying that I really do enjoy this simulator quite a lot. It is truly the only motocross simulation ever made that even comes close to replicating the feel of racing with the real physics of a motorcycle.

However, there are severe control problems that must be adressed if this is to have any major success. I am sure this has been spoken of to some degree in the "suggestions" thread, but with 35 or so pages of raw text to dig through, I think it's forgivable to admit that I have not read all of it, for doing so would take many hours. Also note that I speak only based on my experience with the demo version, for I am hesitant to purchase the full version given the problems I have encountered. Also take into consideration that I have been riding dirtbikes for nearly ten years, more than half of my life, all of which were built at least 20 years prior to anything simulated in MXS.

Now, for the real issue: controllability. Quite simply, it sucks in MXS. As you can gather from the title, when you're doing some high-speed racing, blasting through corners and roaring down straights, the feel and control are quite good (even if the front end occasionally feels like it's made of soap.) The problem arises after you crash or go off the course or whatever. Let's face it, going down is an inevitability of motocross, particularly at the first turn. The MXS control system seems to have the idea that the ONLY way a bike will EVER turn, is by a countersteer causing a lean in the desired direction. This is absolutely false in the highest degree! I can go high-speed in MXS quite well, perhaps better than in real life. However, if I was to try and "take a ride" in MXS, with pulling out of camp and waiting for the other guys and idling in 1st gear to wait for the dust to settle, it would be impossible. The bike would lean wildly to one side and I'd either lose the front wheel or have to do a massive 90 degree countersteer to get going the other way, only to have to do another massive countersteer to go back. There is simply no finesse, the controls are made for going fast, even though fast riding and slow riding are entirely different.

"But this is motocross, we don't ride slow!" you're saying. Au contraire, what if you get all spun around by something (bales, bad jump, some idiot on a Honda, etc.) and need to get back to the track? Surely you can't go fast, the terrain's so rough the bike'll endo or wash out or something. In real life, you'd slow down, aim back at the track and get going again. In the sim, you go way to one side, then lean way over and lose the front wheel, often three times before even seeing the track again! From here on out, I'll just look at situations that I've encountered, that the controls in the game make difficult. The above illustrates the flaws in low-speed handling (which should be solved by more stability ad slower speeds).

As you all know, the finish line at Ekwswanbee is on this big tabletop with nearly vertical sides. Occasionally (and usually thanks to poor low-speed dexterity through the preceeding turn) you'll end up off to one of these sides. The rider will pick the bike up and drag it to point toward the track, putting the front wheel right on this cliff. What to do? In real life, you'd lean the bike over (with your leg or body weight), pop the clutch and be on your merry way. In the sim, you've got two options. Countersteer into the cliff, which gets you nowhere, or countersteer away, causing you to lean toward and turn into the cliff, which gets you nowhere.

Here's another control issue, this time one more of intuition than dexterity. You've just gone off the jump, and you're a little catywompus. You put in control to correct, but the wheel goes the opposite way! The bike is countersteering in the frickin' air! I don't know about you, but if I was on a YZ 30ft in the air and thought "left" then I'd put the bars to the left. In the game, you put in the command that usually turns you left, and the bars go right, which confuses you for the half second it takes a human mind to process such things. You put in the command "right" so that the bike will go left just in time to hear the crunch of neck bones as your rider's helmet impacts the dirt at fifty miles per hour. Even if you do land successfully, now you have to go back to the other system to take the next corner (or aim up or what have you). Now, I'm sure this could be gotten used to, but after a double-digit number of hours in the sim, I'm certainly not used to it, and I feel that such counter-intuitiveness is unnecessary. Real people do not do countersteers in the air, and I don't think sim riders should be forced to, either.

So, how can all this be fixed? Simply modify the way controls are recieved in the game.

+ When taking off, make steer controls lean the bike, rather than countersteering it. This bypasses the countersteer and increases realism.
+ When riding at slow speed (like trying to line up to the track or for a jump) make the bike more stable. Use trial and error to determine by what degree to implement this, or leave it to the individual in the "Control Settings" menu.
+ When the motorcycle is in the air, do not create countersteer, but rather a true steering, as this is what the rider is more likely to be looking for. For those who like the "flying countersteer" because they're used to it or whatever, perhaps make it optional, again in "Control Settings."
+ Release an update with these and other features as they are developed.

I can guarantee you my sale if you do these things, and yes, I do mean that literally. Even if some other issue crops up that would otherwise prevent me from purchasing the software, I am now obligating myself to purchase it in the name of good customer service and personal integrity if such fixes are honestly attempted. I view this not as a bribe or blackmail to the developer(s), but rather as a seal of my commitment to seeing this project become the best that it can be. Feel free to take a screenshot of this text, so there is no way I can go back on my word.


Best Regards,
JETZcorp

[Mittocs]

Ok well I made it through the first few paragraphs and was to lazy to read the rest but the reason you have to counter steer is because thats how the physics engine is built and theres no way around that unless jlv were to completely rebuild the engine? correct me if im wrong jlv

[JETZcorp]

Oh please don't get me wrong. I know the countersteer is absolutely vital in any simulation of real motorcycle physics. What I'm proposing is that it be used only in cases where it is used in real riding. I don't countersteer to aim the bike between to thinks from a dead, stop, I use another method. If the countersteer were eliminated completely, it would utterly ruin the simulation, as you are obviously well-aware.

[Mittocs]

There is nothing he can do about the counter steering. I'm sure he will post a reply with some detail behind it.

[Voutare]

This has been discussed, and every one of use hated it at first, but in time, I'd say 95% of us got used to it, and I can get out of nearly any prediciment now, no problem at all. It's just getting used to it.


That's not saying I don't think it's wrong, but it can be overcome.

Just lean the opposite way, and give it a little gas, and you will do a little circle or whatever, stop leaning, pin it, and get going again.

[DannyBoy]

i agree with what v outure said i couldnt stand this game at first
now i love it and its actually very easy
now u say u have the demo remember that was made a long ass time ago and doesnt even compare to where the game has progressed recently the full version now has rider lean to where you can lean back and forth and turning is much easier because there is more grip to the front tire

[JETZcorp]

Okay, so I see some major improvment has been made, which is very good news indeed. So, perhaps some of the improvments in control could be added to the demo, for the following reason. A demo version of any game is intended to give the potential buyer a look into what he/she will experience when they purchase the final version. If the demo still retains mistakes and such that make it hard to get into for a beginner, then said beginner will be ill-inclined to purchase the final product. In the fields of graphics and such, this is not so important, as one can easily go to YouTube and discover the progress that has been made there. But in physics and control, one has no idea what progress may have been made, unless they spend many hours scouring a massive forum database for the snippet of information they're looking for, if it's there at all. I'm sure a number of sales have been lost from people getting the demo and thinking "bloody hell, it's like riding a washing machine!" While most anyone can surely get used to something that's not up-to-par, they really shouldn't have to. The fact that most people hated it at first is highly demonstrative of a weak point in the program, which should be (and if I understand correctly, has been) modified. I think an upgrade to the demo version in this regard would improve a beginner's outlook on the game dramatically, which would pretty much have to increase sales.

So, I think a brief, quick list of improvments that have been made in this regard would not only ensure my ability to sleep at night, but lock in my sale guarantee that I made. Thank you all for being patient with me and contributing individually to what should be the next big thing in the simulation genre (Which reminds me, does anyone at SimHQ know about this?)

Best Regards,
JETZcorp

[jlv]

- When you're recovering from a crash the easiest thing to do is to use the steering while backing up to get yourself pointed the right way and then take off.

- There is a slow speed stability control, but it's currently in a hidden menu (select the stablity control and press *, then turn up slow damping factor). I'll probably put that adjuster in the regular menu at some point.

- Flipping the steering in the air is a bad idea. I tried it once and it was horrible. It feels less natural on big jumps but the real problem is little bumps. You'll be going around a sweeper, hit a little bump, steer the wrong way and then all hell breaks loose when you hit the ground.

The demo version is the same as the 1.1 update, which was released in September. The next major update will probably be sometime in January. It takes a fair amount of effort to get all the different installers (demo, full version, upgrade, CD image, and the tar files for Linux users) built, uploaded and tested. I'd rather spend that time improving the game so I just release snapshots of the latest build for registered users and try to keep the major updates less frequent. The demo falls behind a little, but if I updated the installers as often as I release snapshots I'd be spending all my time on installers.

[exmxer]

- When you're recovering from a crash the easiest thing to do is to use the steering while backing up to get yourself pointed the right way and then take off.

- There is a slow speed stability control, but it's currently in a hidden menu (select the stablity control and press *, then turn up slow damping factor). I'll probably put that adjuster in the regular menu at some point.

- Flipping the steering in the air is a bad idea. I tried it once and it was horrible. It feels less natural on big jumps but the real problem is little bumps. You'll be going around a sweeper, hit a little bump, steer the wrong way and then all hell breaks loose when you hit the ground.

The demo version is the same as the 1.1 update, which was released in September. The next major update will probably be sometime in January. It takes a fair amount of effort to get all the different installers (demo, full version, upgrade, CD image, and the tar files for Linux users) built, uploaded and tested. I'd rather spend that time improving the game so I just release snapshots of the latest build for registered users and try to keep the major updates less frequent. The demo falls behind a little, but if I updated the installers as often as I release snapshots I'd be spending all my time on installers.

For the slow stability control, Are you saying to press stability then press * ? i don't see anything come up. keep up the great work.

[Phathry25]

hover your mouse over the stability slider.

[exmxer]

hover your mouse over the stability slider.

tried didn't see anything come up.

[jlv]

Put the mouse on it and press *.

[exmxer]

I'm a dam retard. i wasn't pressing shift also. sorry about that.

[kwic73]

ive rode the demo for many many hours (like close To 400, im not joking) and as time goes on you get use to most of these things and Especially if u buy the full game, it just goes away, some of these things should be fixed but i still think there are more important thing to be worked on and remeber this is still one man this isnt no big coporation, i think this is amazing wat jlv has done. Thank you...

Oh ya dont hate hondas cause there awesome LOL

[exmxer]

It won't hold the setting for the slow speed stability factor. I'm just gonna leave it go. there more i play the better i get. I use a ps2 controller, throttle is to punchy out of the turns. i think thats also why my steering is so touchy. gonna try getting a xbox 360 controler adapter.