How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

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motokid499
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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby motokid499 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:27 pm

Finalmushroom wrote:
I was really trying to point out that for a simulator the man doesn't stand on the bike like anyone IRL would.

Every setting in this game the character is leaned forward placing weight onto his wrists which applies his weight onto the handlebars.
This is why as you go over any little bump in game the bike endos. IRL this isn't the case (as much anyways).

-Jake


Incorrect.

I think the weight displacement is fairly accurate, and if you watch pro's play the game, they almost never go over the bars unless a mistake is made, just like real life.

There are a few reasons as to why bumps would be causing you to go over the bars. Before I explain, you have to understand that a game with no fake external forces will create an extremely realistic simulation, so realistic to the point where it seems wrong and broken. This isn't because of the physics, but our lack of ability as players. You want the bike to feel and react in certain ways because that's just how it feels in real life, but it's important to note that what you do in real life is muscle memory and pretty much instinct for most riders. When going through a rough section irl, you naturally move your body around the bike to compensate for the roughness. It's natural, you do it automatically, but nobody really has an understanding as to WHY you're doing it, you just do it out of muscle memory because that's what works.

In the game, the rider doesn't move freely on the bike. (Depends on rider settings) YOU as a player have to force yourself to do something that feels natural in real life, but feels unnatural in the game, and that's simply moving your rider. The unnatural feeling comes from having to translate those movements on to a joystick. You cant just lean back through a rough section for example. It will put more weight on the rear, which really just preloads the rear suspension and sends you flying over the bars even worse.

In real life, I challenge you to try and mimic the default rider position in mxs, and ride around a track. Try and keep your core as stiff as possible and don't move at all. It's impossible, you cannot hold on to the bike. No human is strong enough to hold on to the bike at a static body position at race pace. You'll be bucked around like crazy just trying to keep all your joints from moving freely. You may not realize but irl you're always changing your body position to keep your weight distribution where it needs to be for the situation. It's incredibly hard to explain but if you can grasp that then you should be able to understand.

For the longest time I tried to come up with settings that are "realistic" until I realized my idea of realistic was based off of feeling, not data. If a game "feels" real and you're using a game pad, it's not a proper simulation lol. At the end of the day, it's just hard to play true simulators with gamepads because of the amount of things you have to translate from real life into a controller that goes in your hands. Most "simulators" use magical external forces to try and simulate a real FEELING game, but you don't want it to feel real because you have to accept that your idea of real is wrong.

So most players are correct when they are telling you to just practice, because with practice comes muscle memory, which is when things like moving your rider body around in game starts feeling natural. For me and most pro's it's pretty much instinct to move the rider around CONSTANTLY to compensate for bumps and such, keeping the weight distribution where it needs to be at all times to prevent you from being bucked.

Hard to understand I know, I did my best explaining it hopefully it'll help.

If you have any questions lmk I'll try to explain

Ye. Knowledge.
Tanner Rogers

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Finalmushroom » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:07 pm

motokid499 wrote:
Finalmushroom wrote:
I was really trying to point out that for a simulator the man doesn't stand on the bike like anyone IRL would.

Every setting in this game the character is leaned forward placing weight onto his wrists which applies his weight onto the handlebars.
This is why as you go over any little bump in game the bike endos. IRL this isn't the case (as much anyways).

-Jake


Incorrect.

I think the weight displacement is fairly accurate, and if you watch pro's play the game, they almost never go over the bars unless a mistake is made, just like real life.

There are a few reasons as to why bumps would be causing you to go over the bars. Before I explain, you have to understand that a game with no fake external forces will create an extremely realistic simulation, so realistic to the point where it seems wrong and broken. This isn't because of the physics, but our lack of ability as players. You want the bike to feel and react in certain ways because that's just how it feels in real life, but it's important to note that what you do in real life is muscle memory and pretty much instinct for most riders. When going through a rough section irl, you naturally move your body around the bike to compensate for the roughness. It's natural, you do it automatically, but nobody really has an understanding as to WHY you're doing it, you just do it out of muscle memory because that's what works.

In the game, the rider doesn't move freely on the bike. (Depends on rider settings) YOU as a player have to force yourself to do something that feels natural in real life, but feels unnatural in the game, and that's simply moving your rider. The unnatural feeling comes from having to translate those movements on to a joystick. You cant just lean back through a rough section for example. It will put more weight on the rear, which really just preloads the rear suspension and sends you flying over the bars even worse.

In real life, I challenge you to try and mimic the default rider position in mxs, and ride around a track. Try and keep your core as stiff as possible and don't move at all. It's impossible, you cannot hold on to the bike. No human is strong enough to hold on to the bike at a static body position at race pace. You'll be bucked around like crazy just trying to keep all your joints from moving freely. You may not realize but irl you're always changing your body position to keep your weight distribution where it needs to be for the situation. It's incredibly hard to explain but if you can grasp that then you should be able to understand.

For the longest time I tried to come up with settings that are "realistic" until I realized my idea of realistic was based off of feeling, not data. If a game "feels" real and you're using a game pad, it's not a proper simulation lol. At the end of the day, it's just hard to play true simulators with gamepads because of the amount of things you have to translate from real life into a controller that goes in your hands. Most "simulators" use magical external forces to try and simulate a real FEELING game, but you don't want it to feel real because you have to accept that your idea of real is wrong.

So most players are correct when they are telling you to just practice, because with practice comes muscle memory, which is when things like moving your rider body around in game starts feeling natural. For me and most pro's it's pretty much instinct to move the rider around CONSTANTLY to compensate for bumps and such, keeping the weight distribution where it needs to be at all times to prevent you from being bucked.

Hard to understand I know, I did my best explaining it hopefully it'll help.

If you have any questions lmk I'll try to explain

Ye. Knowledge.


This does make a lot of sense. And that's the pet peev that I mention. I get on my bike IRL and like you said I move around push and pull depending on where I see find, hell even sit or stand through sections trying what feels better. That's what I'm looking for and I do understand that we are all different and the game becomes memory. Even watching my lap times decrease and just how I feel on the bike is getting better.

I appreciate the mature response though man!
It's great to have an adult conversation with members of the community about topics that some agree with and some don't.
At the end of the day I'll keep playing and getting better!

-Jake

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby motokid499 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:25 pm

Ya man for sure!

Also if you're after a realistic "feeling" setup I can definitely make one fairly close, so long as you understand it won't actually be realistic :)

And yeah, at the end of the day it's all play time. You have to build the muscle memory to make it instinct.

There's no way to really know this for sure, but I'd be willing to bet money that it takes around the same amount of hours to get to the pro level in MXS as it does in real life, if we compare ride time and play time. I've probably put in a good 4000-5000 hours into this game. Difference is I can just hop on my PC and go. Where as real life there's a much bigger cost involved and time consumed into Moto related things that aren't actually hours on the bike (maintenance etc) so definitely easier and takes less time to go pro on MXS, time meaning amount of years it takes. I truly think raw play time and riding time is VERY similar in hours.

For example, a rider has 5000 hours on the bike. That's probably around 100 rebuilds if it's done every 50 hours.
Just this fact alone, RIP
Tanner Rogers

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Uollie » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:46 pm

motokid499 wrote:Ya man for sure!

Also if you're after a realistic "feeling" setup I can definitely make one fairly close, so long as you understand it won't actually be realistic :)

And yeah, at the end of the day it's all play time. You have to build the muscle memory to make it instinct.

There's no way to really know this for sure, but I'd be willing to bet money that it takes around the same amount of hours to get to the pro level in MXS as it does in real life, if we compare ride time and play time. I've probably put in a good 4000-5000 hours into this game. Difference is I can just hop on my PC and go. Where as real life there's a much bigger cost involved and time consumed into Moto related things that aren't actually hours on the bike (maintenance etc) so definitely easier and takes less time to go pro on MXS, time meaning amount of years it takes. I truly think raw play time and riding time is VERY similar in hours.

For example, a rider has 5000 hours on the bike. That's probably around 100 rebuilds if it's done every 50 hours.
Just this fact alone, RIP



Make me a pro too, Tanner :)

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Finalmushroom » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:32 am

motokid499 wrote:
Finalmushroom wrote:
ShackAttack12 wrote:Rider mass is a vertical setting.Its not forward-to-back. Higher number = higher up on the rider.

A higher number makes the rider's movement have more of an effect on the bike + rider combo.


Hmm, This seems weird to me. For me the higher the number it almost feels like I adjusted my chain stays back like an inch or two. It's weird. The bike feels longer to me and actually feels like the bike moves around less for me. Like I said, I feel like I can hold a straight line more as well as the whoops are more consistent.

But maybe that is because he has a higher center of gravity.
Thanks for the insight though!

I think I like .45 with my current set up the most. I really want to give .47 or .48 a try like some others have mentioned as well.

-Jake


Shack is correct, and yes your center of gravity being changed is what's changing the feeling. You will find that certain settings don't make sense in this game because what it claims to do and how it feels doesn't really correlate sometimes. This isnt because the settings are flawed, it's just how our brains interpret it. We think it should be a certain way and get confused when it's not.

There are many other factors and things to consider when changing a setting like that though. Everything about this game, like real life, is give and take. I won't get too much into it but if you need any help trying to replicate a certain feeling PM me and I'll help you out.

Also, there is a plethora of incorrect information floating around this forum so just be careful where you get your answers from.


I appreciate it man!!
The give and take is a perfect description.
I'll find a suspension and body setting that I like throughout the track and then I hit the whoops and I hate it.
I hit the whoops the same way (Pin it in 1st on the 450, lol). and it's slow, smooth, and more importantly consistent!!
Playing with all of these setting is great. It's a love hate but it really is why I love this game. There are so many possibilities and all the fast guys on here can tell me all day to run this and run that but at the end of the day, I like what I like and I need to figure it out.
The help is appreciated for a starting reference but after that it's all the individual!!

I have had really good luck with:
1. Adding some preload to the rear shock
2. Increasing the compression to the rear shock.
3. Decreasing the rebound for high and low speed for my rear shock.
4. Increased rebound on my front fork.
5. I'm back to .43 I've tried .46/.48 and the bike feels long as hell. lol (There must be other settings that counteract this but as long as I can hold a line and can hit the whoops alright I'm happy).

I've made little tweaks in all five areas and the bike is a million times better!!
I've heard a lot of people say suspension isn't that big of a deal but I totally disagree. Being comfortable on the bike helps a ton.
It's also worth noting that when you hit the big and smooth lines it really helps. I think being slow and hitting weird lines or just getting out of rhythm really makes the little things like suspension matter. lol.

-Jake

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Atom6246 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:20 am

I've been watching your videos and cant help but notice... are you using a keyboard?
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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Finalmushroom » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:54 am

Atom6246 wrote:I've been watching your videos and cant help but notice... are you using a keyboard?


LOLOL, No an Xbox One controller.

Why is that? All throttle or none?? :mrgreen:

Ride it like I do my Cr250 IRl. lol

-Jake

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Atom6246 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:33 am

Well even if you had a controller you could use a button throttle so no thats not why I assume that but more so because how twitchy your bars are.
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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Jakob Hubbard » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:22 pm

Atom6246 wrote:Well even if you had a controller you could use a button throttle so no thats not why I assume that but more so because how twitchy your bars are.

He could also have a really loose advanced too.
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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby MOTOZ293 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:57 pm

It helps if you turn down your debi
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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Finalmushroom » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:32 pm

MOTOZ293 wrote:It helps if you turn down your debi


What's debi? lol.

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Finalmushroom » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:37 pm

Jakob Hubbard wrote:
Atom6246 wrote:Well even if you had a controller you could use a button throttle so no thats not why I assume that but more so because how twitchy your bars are.

He could also have a really loose advanced too.


I just loosened it up actually because I was having problems making it into the tight SX turns.
Honestly, I just have a really bad sense of being gentle or controlled with my sticks.
On every game I play I always have to lower the sensitivity because I'm an idiot and crank on the sticks when I shouldn't. lol.

I let Atom know my advanced settings and they aren't far from what he posted on YouTube.
I'm trying to find a setting that I can initial turns well yet isn't too touchy and will allow me to hold a line better.
I think it's just me! lol.

-Jake

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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby Atom6246 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:02 pm

Jakob Hubbard wrote:
Atom6246 wrote:Well even if you had a controller you could use a button throttle so no thats not why I assume that but more so because how twitchy your bars are.

He could also have a really loose advanced too.

I gave him my stability and he said it was looser than what he was running which doesnt make sense because there is no possible way my setup is that loose.
Finalmushroom wrote:I just loosened it up actually because I was having problems making it into the tight SX turns.
Honestly, I just have a really bad sense of being gentle or controlled with my sticks.
On every game I play I always have to lower the sensitivity because I'm an idiot and crank on the sticks when I shouldn't. lol.

Ahh ok I gotcha
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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby RevLimiter » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:26 pm

You can try Tysen's setup. I'm use to touchy advanced so I'd if it is touchy but I remember when I switched to it, it felt very stabe and you can carry a lot of speed with it in supercross
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Re: How to get the rider weight off the handlebars

Postby RevLimiter » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:27 pm

RevLimiter wrote:You can try Tysen's setup. I'm use to touchy advanced so I'd if it is touchy but I remember when I switched to it, it felt very stabe and you can carry a lot of speed with it in supercross


Idk* not I'd
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