KTM's suck?

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Gandorlf
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby Gandorlf » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:39 am

dawsonsleeper wrote:
Gandorlf wrote:
Bubba40 wrote:KTM/Husqvarna are the best bikes for the average rider IMO. The maintenance on KTM/Husqvarna are so little compared to a Kawasaki, we had to change the pistons on the Kawasaki KX250F 2013-2017 every 4 hours or we would blow them up. KTM/Husqvarna we do about 12 to 15 hours on a piston.
We have had 1 problem with KTM/Husqvarna and it was a cracked frame but they replaced it in a week so no complements from me .
I'm talking about the practice bike not are race bike.


Are you putting plastic pistons in it? If you're only getting 4hrs out of a piston then you need to go back to college and learn how to replace them properly. Eli puts over 5 hrs on a piston on his practice bike.

Elis bikes arent anywhere near stock, hes got a very high performance top of the line engine. I sure hope it lasts more than 5 hours.


Factory bikes don't last anywhere near as long as a stocker. 5hrs on a factory bike is a long time. For Bubba to say they get 4hrs out of a bike when a factory motor can do 5 is just silly. More performance = less reliability. It's a balancing act.

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Aaron Hall
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby Aaron Hall » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:35 am

Root's bikes aint stock either. But Austin did race 2017 on a stock bike. It all depends how you ride the bike am near 50hours on my KX250F 15 still never done a piston change :lol: My bike has barely been out of 3rd gear, Austin and Hunter probably sit on the limiter around the whole track
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby Bubba40 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:17 am

Gandorlf wrote:
dawsonsleeper wrote:
Gandorlf wrote:
Are you putting plastic pistons in it? If you're only getting 4hrs out of a piston then you need to go back to college and learn how to replace them properly. Eli puts over 5 hrs on a piston on his practice bike.

Elis bikes arent anywhere near stock, hes got a very high performance top of the line engine. I sure hope it lasts more than 5 hours.


Factory bikes don't last anywhere near as long as a stocker. 5hrs on a factory bike is a long time. For Bubba to say they get 4hrs out of a bike when a factory motor can do 5 is just silly. More performance = less reliability. It's a balancing act.


250F and 450F Piston changes are completely different hours. Kawasaki 250F bikes are not a reliably bike for a pro that trains in the sand.
Every Factory 250F team at nationals are getting a brand new engine every race, There ticking time bombs. Hopefully the new the 2020 Kawasaki 250F will have a more reliably motor. The parts in the engine are cheap from what engine builders tells us compared to a KTM.
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby Bubba40 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:21 am

Aaron Hall wrote:Root's bikes aint stock either. But Austin did race 2017 on a stock bike. It all depends how you ride the bike am near 50hours on my KX250F 15 still never done a piston change :lol: My bike has barely been out of 3rd gear, Austin and Hunter probably sit on the limiter around the whole track

I would really recommend getting a piston for that bike. He's not hard on the rev limiter.
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby m121c » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:00 pm

yzmxer608 wrote:
m121c wrote:
808 wrote:
Well what I meant was they are the most reliable.


still the best bikes anyways tho


Oh boy, do I have couple horror stories for you about Yamahas and the company in general.

I had the photo of your frames side by side, but must have deleted it. I can't find it now.
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Just for context 808. That's the fuel injector on my old 2015 yz250f, installed sideways at the factory. The bike sucked sand, dirt, water, and air for the first 8 hours until it finally killed the motor. Everytime I would wash the thing it would never start, this was the time JMart was having electrical issues with water so we thought it was that, nope. After 8 hours finally took it to Rock River Yamaha only for them to not touch the bike for 3 weeks, letting the water that they sprayed in there (to "test' where water was coming in at) corrode the motor and ruin the entire top end. Then they tried to blame it on my air filter cage as a user error, but they were real happy to put a guarantee on a new $3k motor swap.

I knew it was bullshit the entire time. Twin Air was not happy with Rock River either for the unproven theory (so much so when we finally cleared their products name in the whole deal, the sent me multiple filters for free). When we pulled that injector out in their garage by hiring their mechanic to do work he was supposed to do 3 weeks prior, even when Yamaha and Rock River had to eat their words, they drug their feet 2 months to replace everything. When I got it back, they clearly had the kid from high school do it, I had engine bolts mismatched, loose bolts, the bike was way over filled on oil, it was a shit show. They took the cheap route and replace the top end only, originally I wanted a full motor swap.

Fast forward to the end of the year. Besides the hiccup I loved my 250. Ended up putting all that aside and getting a 16 yz450. I cracked the frame in 20 hours. Again, Yamaha was unresponsive and took 3 months to reluctantly replace. I think in the end, it was our dealer that ate the fees.

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I like my Yamaha, I really did. Aside from the weak brakes and factory issues. The company can kiss my ass though.

I really like my KTM now.

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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby 808 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:05 pm

m121c wrote:
yzmxer608 wrote:
m121c wrote:
Oh boy, do I have couple horror stories for you about Yamahas and the company in general.

I had the photo of your frames side by side, but must have deleted it. I can't find it now.
Image


Just for context 808. That's the fuel injector on my old 2015 yz250f, installed sideways at the factory. The bike sucked sand, dirt, water, and air for the first 8 hours until it finally killed the motor. Everytime I would wash the thing it would never start, this was the time JMart was having electrical issues with water so we thought it was that, nope. After 8 hours finally took it to Rock River Yamaha only for them to not touch the bike for 3 weeks, letting the water that they sprayed in there (to "test' where water was coming in at) corrode the motor and ruin the entire top end. Then they tried to blame it on my air filter cage as a user error, but they were real happy to put a guarantee on a new $3k motor swap.

I knew it was bullshit the entire time. Twin Air was not happy with Rock River either for the unproven theory (so much so when we finally cleared their products name in the whole deal, the sent me multiple filters for free). When we pulled that injector out in their garage by hiring their mechanic to do work he was supposed to do 3 weeks prior, even when Yamaha and Rock River had to eat their words, they drug their feet 2 months to replace everything. When I got it back, they clearly had the kid from high school do it, I had engine bolts mismatched, loose bolts, the bike was way over filled on oil, it was a shit show. They took the cheap route and replace the top end only, originally I wanted a full motor swap.

Fast forward to the end of the year. Besides the hiccup I loved my 250. Ended up putting all that aside and getting a 16 yz450. I cracked the frame in 20 hours. Again, Yamaha was unresponsive and took 3 months to reluctantly replace. I think in the end, it was our dealer that ate the fees.

Image

I like my Yamaha, I really did. Aside from the weak brakes and factory issues. The company can kiss my ass though.

I really like my KTM now.


That sounds like a shitload of bad luck, sorry that happened :oops: . As for me though, never had issues, maybe I'm just being biased since pretty much the whole fam is yam for life.
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Aaron Hall
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby Aaron Hall » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:46 pm

Bubba40 wrote:
Aaron Hall wrote:Root's bikes aint stock either. But Austin did race 2017 on a stock bike. It all depends how you ride the bike am near 50hours on my KX250F 15 still never done a piston change :lol: My bike has barely been out of 3rd gear, Austin and Hunter probably sit on the limiter around the whole track

I would really recommend getting a piston for that bike. He's not hard on the rev limiter.

Trading it in come December, cba to spend $200 on a piston to get the same price from a dealer.
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby TeamHavocRacing » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:20 pm

Always take someones hard luck story with a grain of salt. It usually isn't an indictment of that company or entire corporation. Sometimes it may be an indication of a larger problem though. Too often one guy comes in hot with a shitty experience and ruins the reputation of some company because of snap judgments. Damn kids anyway.
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby Hi Im Skyqe » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:56 pm

TeamHavocRacing wrote:Always take someones hard luck story with a grain of salt. It usually isn't an indictment of that company or entire corporation. Sometimes it may be an indication of a larger problem though. Too often one guy comes in hot with a shitty experience and ruins the reputation of some company because of snap judgments. Damn kids anyway.


Kind of hard to put zero stock on opinions from people who have bad experiences with companies. If it is an oddball situation sure you can sweep it under a rug but if something becomes a pattern it is good to consider. At the end of the day every manufacturer or dealer is perfect until you have an issue with them, it is how they rectify the situation that matters.

Being involved in this industry and knowing first hand what Mason went through with both bikes I can say without a doubt both the dealer and manufacturer made mistakes. Not all manufacturers are the same and some are much better than others when it comes to goodwill and warranty. Diagnostic time is an issue, if manufacturers gave dealers time to properly diagnose issues everyone would be happier. Warranty work doesn't make a dealership money and in many cases loses them money, especially since all issues aren't cookie cutter like labor times make them out to be.

I can understand from the dealer side diagnosing the issues Mason had would have been a losing proposition diagnosing for something they aren't going to be paid for. The dealer didn't diagnose the issue correctly to start with and gave Yamaha a bogus out to use on the customer. The aftermarket air filter is the issue, great, so why was the air boot dry when the engine was ingesting water? The water is coming from somewhere else, be it on the engine or in this case the throttle body. At the end of the day the issue was found at a time where the customer was paying for shop time to diagnose not when the dealer was diagnosing the issue for warranty purposes. Even after all of this Yamaha chose not to completely rectify the issue.

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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby checkerz » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:44 pm

Sometime along the line, every person and every company will make a mistake. It isn't the mistake that the company should be judged by, but by the way they handle it.

It takes 10 positives to offset one negative and a company will be a lot better off in the long term fixing/avoiding the negatives than just marketing the positives.

#JustMy2Pennies

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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby TeamHavocRacing » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:32 pm

I kinda knew I was pulling a pin on a grenade since people already fiercely attack or defend a company for reasons sometimes without merit or substance. Mason carefully laid out his reasons obviously. One dealers bad attitude or handling of a situation ruining a reputation is more what I was meaning. I can understand them shuffling their feet to run the clock out on a warranty which totally sucks for the poor end user. I've never bought a brand new vehicle partly out of being ghetto and partly out of that fear.
jlv wrote:I disagree with your disagreement.

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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby Lynch » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:07 pm

TeamHavocRacing wrote:Always take someones hard luck story with a grain of salt. It usually isn't an indictment of that company or entire corporation. Sometimes it may be an indication of a larger problem though. Too often one guy comes in hot with a shitty experience and ruins the reputation of some company because of snap judgments. Damn kids anyway.

This is so true, one of my friends had all kinds of problems this year with two KTM 350's and he has sworn to never buy austrian again. 40 hours on his first 350 the gearbox let go, at 58 hours the frame snapped and he still bought another KTM only to have it lose compression after 5 hours. Yet everyone else in our group of friends still ride them with next to no problems. I have seen a bunch of frames break tho, never had any problems personaly but I have seen 8 KTM/Husky frames with cracks or in two pieces with my own eyes in the last two years.

I put 212 hours into my KTM 450 16, clogged injector, broken starter relay, a handfull of blown fuses and a roll over sensor that broke was the "only" problems I had with that bike. I would not hesitate buying another KTM if it came down to it, just happened to buy a Yamaha 450.

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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby m121c » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:46 pm

As Chris said, in manufacturing, there is always going to be mistakes, it happens. How it is handled is what defines the company and affiliates, there is so much more that I didn't mention.

I will give you some context on why my blood is hot on this event. It's not because I'm butthurt my new bike at the time only had 8 hours on it before kicking the dust, shit happens, but this is why:

Yamaha full well knew about my issue. That year was a bad year for the 250's electrical systems (So bad that multiple Yamaha's missed motos at LL that year due to electrical issues, Jmart has issues at GH, and the entire Star Yamaha team would not wash their bikes on race day). I was not the only one experiencing major water issues with their Yamaha 250f. There was an 8 page thread on vital about it, strangely we all have the same experience with trying to contact Yamaha.

I spent hours on hold with Yamaha USA, talked to several techs over the phone, and not once did they ever call back as promised, nor keep track of my accounts. Eventually, my calls were ignored all together. My local dealer's Yamaha rep for my area, who I will not name, completely ignored my issue and claimed it to me user error. My local dealer is small town and has no real solid connection to Yamaha other than through this rep. Rock River Yamaha is a 5 hour trip away from my home, being one of the largest/most connected Yamaha dealers in the country I decided to go there.

I was so confident that it was a factory issue, I assured RR that their time spent diagnosing the issue would not go unpaid from my side (even signed on my name on it), knowing full well they would find a factory issue. So it was like they were not playing a unpaid guessing game for hours upon on hours during business time.

I get a call after 3-4 weeks of hearing nothing from Mike the owner. He tells me it was the TwinAir cage I had installed on the bike. I asked how he knew this, because I am extremely careful with my airbox and I had never gotten water in it. He tells me they washed it, the bike wouldn't start and they just determined it to be that. I gave him VIVID descriptions when I dropped off the bike about the things I had tried to find the issue. I 110% knew it was not my airbox, wash cover, or twinair system because when I washed my bike I would place clean shop towels in the boot, and it never got wet once. I ask politely to try again, prove it's the TwinAir system. (Shortly after this I contact TwinAir about this to see if they have had any issues, they said none they knew about, but what was striking was the TwinAir Rep actually chuckled when I mentioned RR, mentioned some disagreement RR and them had over sponsorship deals).

Anyways, I get a call a week later asking me to either pick my bike up and pay my shop fees, or that they will do a motor swap for me at small price of $3k and they would guarantee that one. (Keep in mind the problem was not found, a new motor would of simply been TRASHED again due to this injector.. assuming it wasn't noticed during the swap.. you think they would have said anything? LOL).

So at this point I am pissed and defeated. No one wants to listen and no one wants to try. So when I go up there to pick my bike up, I offer to Mike that I will pay his Mechanics hourly rate (if he has the time that day) to go through my bike with my administration because I would like to see what they had found. When I get back to the shop only one thing had been taken off my bike, my gas tank. When I started asking the mechanic (who was supposed to be in and out of this bike) questions about what he did. He admits he did nothing but spray the bike off, put in the corner for two weeks, see that it had no compression/wouldn't start, and then thought it was TwinAir cage so he SUPER GLUED THE THING TO MY AIRBOX. What was funny was he was on my side, he 100% thought that wasn't it, but he was told not to mess with it once they decided it was the filter system.

So 10 minutes pass of back and forth bullshitting as to what it could be. He mentions that when he looked down the boot there was water corrosion on the throttle body slide. Well that's easy. That means water was sitting there when the bike (slide not open) was not running. Therefore it leaking from either an air box defect, the "cage" as they thought, or the fuel injector. I asked to pull the injector out, and TA-DAAAA, there it is. Managed to take us a whole 15 minutes total. You should of see the look on that dudes face, or even better, Mikes face when we showed it to him in his office.

Now they did contact Yamaha Japan directly over this, I will give RR credit, they accepted their mistake and called Yamaha right away. He did mention to me to not get my hopes up, Yamaha doesn't normally admit to these things and warranty. In the end I had to drive back up a month later to pick my bike up because: 1. The warranty work could go to no other dealer but RR and 2. The entire process took that long. When I go to pick my bike up I was disappointed to see that I had only gotten a top end replacement, but not surprised. When we showed up, Mike wouldn't talk to us. The mechanic would hardly talk to us. They were seemingly annoyed when we asked to see the old parts. The vibe was not good, you could feel they did not like that they didn't get their way from the beginning. I get home, and as I said earlier, it was like a highschool kid with a T-Handle put my bike back together. For having a race team, and massive shop, it should be embarrassing on how I got my bike back.

Anyways, the Yamaha warranty survey comes in the mail asking me to rate my experience. FINALLY. I get to say what I really feel, even though I thought it would have no effect on anyone. Well 3 weeks later I get a voicemail from Mike at RR yelling at me because I hurt his service record with Yamaha by tanking the rating, how ungrateful I was for him helping me, and basically threatening me saying the sport is a small one and bridges are bad to be burned. At the end of his rant, he then asks me to recant my survey and do a new more deserved rating. This guy. You can probably guess my returning phone call was not so polite and friendly as I had been.


At the end of this. My 450 frame cracks, like so many before them, and the shit storm of dealing with Yamaha USA starts all over again. Knowing that Yamaha customer service is shit we were kinda lost on what to do. Luckily my small town dealership had a different rep at this point in time that actually took care of it, not without some very hard persuasive talks with Yamaha.. Still took about 2 months for Yamaha to get us the frame, but at least it wasn't the nightmare it was the summer before.

#Storytime I know, but I think it's important that I establish I'm not out to trash a business or corporation without some type of underlying reason other than I got a lemon off the showroom floor.

Take it with a grain of salt though. I had bad luck.Yamaha's are generally good bikes and you will most likely never have to deal with the asshats I did. Or atleast I hope you dont... because if you do, good luck.

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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby TeamHavocRacing » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:32 pm

I was generalizing after you told your story. I pointed out how well you stated your case, again this time too. I was not singling you out for there not being an underlying issue. It sounds like there was denial and avoidance on their part. It definitely seems like a pattern which can't be considered as an anomaly. Sucks when a company as big as Yamaha can't/won't own up to it and make good. The KTM frame snapping thing seems to have some repeat stories too as much as it also has been blown out of proportion.
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Re: KTM's suck?

Postby yzmxer608 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:59 am

Remind me to not go to RR, I gave them some money for grips and a barpad this year but that may be it :lol:. Obviously you know my bias towards the brand, but I've never had to deal with any type of warranty work so I can't really comment on anything corporate wise.

Maybe to some people's surprise, I did ride a KTM. 1998 50 pro senior, was actually a fun good bike after it was gone through. Needed some frame welding work (really :mrgreen: ), it was either crashed super hard or flipped out of a truck or something (used bike). Think the only problem I had with it was it overheated once and died on a trail, but started up after a while and was good.
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