erode sucks

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JackGat369
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Re: erode sucks

Postby JackGat369 » Tue May 12, 2020 2:12 pm

VUSTTOS wrote:
mx201 wrote:Erode is sick, I think it adds a skill gap during races and we dont have as many try hards who can just hit the exact same line every lap for 35mins.


Tracks are mostly flat, where's the skill gap in a flat track? Also, by due the small premade ruts and bumps, the ruts and bumps ends up being almost the same every race so basically, once you have played a few races in the same track, you already know how where the ruts and bumps are going to be.


Bumps form because of applying the brakes right? When you go to your local track do you brake roughly at the same point in a corner every lap? if so do the bumps form in a similar place every time you ride there? The speed and angle of the corner dictates the shape of the ruts and the bumps in the entry and exit doesn't it?
finally when you go to said local track do the ruts form in a similar place every time? yes they may differ in size a little bit but more often that not the first rut that is formed is the quickest way around the corner, once that becomes too rough, where does the second rut form? the answer is the 2nd quickest route around the corner!

I do get what you're saying but translate this to sim and we see similarities, the Pre-made ruts are demonstrating the lines that would be used in IRL, obviously the quickest gets used the most so that becomes ruined so the second quickest then gets used! sometimes the erode value in sim isn''t correct so we don't reach the 2nd rut or sometimes we reach the 6th rut but that also depends on the track.

I think erode adds so much realism to sim and yes there are flaws in it but there are flaws in every game isn't there?
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Re: erode sucks

Postby Wahlamt » Tue May 12, 2020 5:24 pm

JackGat369 wrote:When you go to said local track do the ruts form in a similar place every time?

Yes. My old local trackhas had the same ruts for the last 10 years :lol: :lol: :lol: No joke, the base is so freaking hard and they don't have anything proper to break it up with lol. So they just put dirt over the more or less concrete rut, just to wait for it to go away again.. 8)

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Re: erode sucks

Postby mx201 » Tue May 12, 2020 10:12 pm

VUSTTOS wrote:
mx201 wrote:Erode is sick, I think it adds a skill gap during races and we dont have as many try hards who can just hit the exact same line every lap for 35mins.


Tracks are mostly flat, where's the skill gap in a flat track? Also, by due the small premade ruts and bumps, the ruts and bumps ends up being almost the same every race so basically, once you have played a few races in the same track, you already know how where the ruts and bumps are going to be.

2 Laps on a pre made track and you already know the lines. Erode actually makes you change lines and takes some talent and skill. Pre-Made was old, erode is the best thing this game has had in years. Get use to erode or stop playing the game.
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Re: erode sucks

Postby jlv » Wed May 13, 2020 1:54 am

Hi Im Skyqe wrote:
WillSt24 wrote:You're right Atom but still, other than the ruts not being walls but more tiny and less line choices (As we can see on the 3rd picture, 2 lines were developing in the corner entry) I don't think there can be any more progress than that with how the game physics are / erode settings, as mentioned before by others. So maybe we simply did reach the limits of erode?


There is still TONS of development to be made in erode. Like others and myself have posted, help is needed from JLV to make it more attainable.

All I'm going to do is optimize what's there now. The develop/test cycle for erode is nightmarish and the demands are almost impossible. It's like you wrote a cloud simulator and someone says "make it create clouds that look like mickey mouse". And you're like, "it's brownian motion, I can't...". I spent a huge amount of time trying to force it to make ruts cut through jump tops. The problem is when the front wheel leaves the jump it unloads the back wheel so you're working against the laws of physics. Do they cut through in real life? Well, definitely not all the time.

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So basically what I'm doing is trying to selectively break the rules to achieve certain effects that aren't even necessarily realistic. As you do this, it breaks other things that were okay before. It's a fools errand. I'd rather work on stuff I can actually make progress on.
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Re: erode sucks

Postby Hi Im Skyqe » Wed May 13, 2020 2:53 am

jlv wrote:
Hi Im Skyqe wrote:
WillSt24 wrote:You're right Atom but still, other than the ruts not being walls but more tiny and less line choices (As we can see on the 3rd picture, 2 lines were developing in the corner entry) I don't think there can be any more progress than that with how the game physics are / erode settings, as mentioned before by others. So maybe we simply did reach the limits of erode?


There is still TONS of development to be made in erode. Like others and myself have posted, help is needed from JLV to make it more attainable.

All I'm going to do is optimize what's there now. The develop/test cycle for erode is nightmarish and the demands are almost impossible. It's like you wrote a cloud simulator and someone says "make it create clouds that look like mickey mouse". And you're like, "it's brownian motion, I can't...". I spent a huge amount of time trying to force it to make ruts cut through jump tops. The problem is when the front wheel leaves the jump it unloads the back wheel so you're working against the laws of physics. Do they cut through in real life? Well, definitely not all the time.

Image

So basically what I'm doing is trying to selectively break the rules to achieve certain effects that aren't even necessarily realistic. As you do this, it breaks other things that were okay before. It's a fools errand. I'd rather work on stuff I can actually make progress on.


That post was more of a ten thousand foot overview of the whole situation not just erode itself.

I was speaking of having the ability to make adjustments from in client to make development of what is currently available more feasible, not that the current system isn't working, I think it is 100% possible with what you have given us already but the settings that have been made need development which takes testing with 40 people for MX. If it is possible to make testing easier that would be a huge help.

The other thought was like others posted support for newer hardware and graphical improvements will help with erode.

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Re: erode sucks

Postby model_90 » Wed May 13, 2020 7:54 pm

i think were at a decent point with erode, my main hope is that development in the visual end of things happens soon, I dont wanna say what since im sure most know what i am talking about. I think some people also dont realize that it is one guy working on this game, not a whole team or company so development wont be continous and frequent. Respect to JLV for all he has done, were lucky we get any updates to this game, as this is not a monthly subscription model or Patreon-esque metric for expectations on what he should be doing.
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Re: erode sucks

Postby Ddavis » Wed May 13, 2020 11:28 pm

I'm not going to be too critical of erode because we are dealing with an old physics engine and we've seen a lot of progress in the past 2 years. To be fair I'm just happy we got to that point where erode is being used because there's a lot of current racers who don't even realize that 3-4 years ago erode was a pipe dream and wasn't close to being used. Fast forward a few years and it's hard to imagine a race without erode.
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Re: erode sucks

Postby DJ99X » Thu May 14, 2020 9:47 am

jlv wrote:All I'm going to do is optimize what's there now. The develop/test cycle for erode is nightmarish and the demands are almost impossible. It's like you wrote a cloud simulator and someone says "make it create clouds that look like mickey mouse". And you're like, "it's brownian motion, I can't...". I spent a huge amount of time trying to force it to make ruts cut through jump tops. The problem is when the front wheel leaves the jump it unloads the back wheel so you're working against the laws of physics. Do they cut through in real life? Well, definitely not all the time.

Image

So basically what I'm doing is trying to selectively break the rules to achieve certain effects that aren't even necessarily realistic. As you do this, it breaks other things that were okay before. It's a fools errand. I'd rather work on stuff I can actually make progress on.


Does it make sense to move it over to scripting? Could keep what you've got now, but let it be overwritten by a check summed script. I believe some of the wheel data necessary is already accessible through scripting, would just need a function to manipulate the terrain.

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Re: erode sucks

Postby TeamHavocRacing » Thu May 14, 2020 1:53 pm

jlv wrote:"it's brownian motion, I can't..." I'd rather work on stuff I can actually make progress on.

Yeah, it's brownian motion you whiners, so shut up!
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Re: erode sucks

Postby jlv » Fri May 15, 2020 1:15 am

DJ99X wrote:Does it make sense to move it over to scripting? Could keep what you've got now, but let it be overwritten by a check summed script. I believe some of the wheel data necessary is already accessible through scripting, would just need a function to manipulate the terrain.

Definitely couldn't move the whole thing to a script for performance reasons. Might be reasonable to add a hook that lets a script modify the force numbers, but it's pretty slow already and moving away from native code would slow it down more.

TeamHavocRacing wrote:
jlv wrote:"it's brownian motion, I can't..." I'd rather work on stuff I can actually make progress on.

Yeah, it's brownian motion you whiners, so shut up!

That was just an example. I'm just trying to say it's a system trying to model something complex and it's really difficult to make it produce some exact result, especially when the desired result isn't something that would naturally happen.
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Re: erode sucks

Postby TeamHavocRacing » Fri May 15, 2020 5:47 am

I'm just blown away by how far you've come with erode period(.) I remember the chunky old method that would slowly update.
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Re: erode sucks

Postby Jrife548 » Fri May 15, 2020 7:13 am

I ran a 125 race on 2018 Glen Helen with erode.. 1 erode, 60 riders. There was 0 chop. None at all. Track was rough as shit but there weren't any triangles in the ruts preventing you from accelerating because you're essentially riding across a nail bed through the whole thing. It was insanely fun riding erode that actually functioned and didn't form ruts that looked like a heart monitor gradient.

If erode could go back to how it was in 2018, erode would be fantastic. Don't really know what happened along the way..
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Re: erode sucks

Postby motokid499 » Fri May 15, 2020 9:04 am

I just want realistic tracks again. 2013 GP's were the prime era of tracks for MX simulator. Some of the best tracks ever built imo. I kinda want to do a few erode races on 2013 gp's and see how it goes. Might have to smooth out the track a bit or maybe just run erode super super low. Traction levels feel good, resistance could be upped for new dynos.
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Re: erode sucks

Postby ROSE822 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:11 pm

is there anyway possible so when you go through the rut it smooths out the 'Erode'?? sort of like the smooth tool in track editor?
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Re: erode sucks

Postby jlv » Sun May 17, 2020 2:35 am

ROSE822 wrote:is there anyway possible so when you go through the rut it smooths out the 'Erode'?? sort of like the smooth tool in track editor?

A bigger radius will give you smoother bumps.
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