yzmxer608 wrote:Don't know what you guys are on about landing on the throttle, I almost always land WFO and don't get these random falloffs. I've used everything from super stiff digressive to softer progressive in SX (which actually doesn't feel too bad) and don't get random falloffs. Not sure what you guys are doing .
That's just what everyone here is saying. Everyone in real life lands wide fucking open also.
I just recreated what made me falloff multiple times and its fucked. this suspension blows now
SOAB_465 wrote:I wonder if Racetech knows how much force the chain tension can add to the rear suspension? Like if it max's out at 50lbs you could interpolate that from landing with the clutch in up to landing in 5th tapped. I don't know how much difference it would make, but it would stiffen the shock some in the whoops and on-offs. I still think a lot of the fall offs are from forward acceleration more than vertical though.
It wouldn't stiffen the shock, it would compress it more. To stiffen it, the pivot would have to be above the chain. That's why you see some mountain bikes with the pivot over the chain.
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
Do you agree there is an issue with landing on the throttle versus off the throttle?
If yes...
a. do you know what is causing it?
b. is this something you are looking into a solution to fix?
If no...
a. do you think it is something with strictly the suspension setup?
b. should we be looking at rider settings or advanced settings as well?
b2. can you give us an idea where you would start experimenting to solve the issues?
As it currently sits, I still think the new changes are for the better and I don't get a ton of the fall-offs that drive me nuts, but they are frustrating when they do happen. I will also say the limits for fall off on some of the bigger hits could be toned down to crash more easily. I also know from my time at that arcade dirtbike game with monster trucks that tuning this specific variable is ridiculously impossible to get "right" in all cases, which may be why it's a bit easier for me to accept where we currently are at.
I do not understand very little suspension is why we will continue to use the previous vercion. I never knew of suspensions added more options they do not understand. I find this totally awful. It would have to be a little easier to have a better quality and more competitive all
jlv wrote:
It wouldn't stiffen the shock, it would compress it more. To stiffen it, the pivot would have to be above the chain. That's why you see some mountain bikes with the pivot over the chain.
The pivot is above the CL of the sprockets though; the chain gets tighter when you compress the suspension. From a rough CAD model I think the distance between tangent points on top of the sprockets increases at least 3mm over the first half of the travel on a full sized bike, with 315mm of travel. The cheapest chains are rated at over 7000lbs tensile strength and they do break sometimes...
I'm not sure this is what's causing all the whining about the rear suspension, but I think it does stiffen the rear of the bike somewhat under power - at least until the swing arm is parallel with the sprockets.
SOAB_465 wrote:I'm not sure this is what's causing all the whining about the rear suspension
This gif right here is more than enough to justify it. I'm sure there is some type of on paper explanation for it though right? Although I am no hope on how to fix this issue as I can't tell you in technical form what is causing it, I do know the first step to fixing an issue is realizing it's there.
AWood just run out to one of the SX tracks for the day... I'm sure you'll find one guy get blown off his bike like he cased a 100' triple, but instead off a 3-4ft tall table top. It's gotta be a common occurrence.
The way he hit those walls... in sim I bet you would most likely get a fall off, almost guarantee it.
Do you agree there is an issue with landing on the throttle versus off the throttle?
If yes...
a. do you know what is causing it?
b. is this something you are looking into a solution to fix?
If no...
a. do you think it is something with strictly the suspension setup?
b. should we be looking at rider settings or advanced settings as well?
b2. can you give us an idea where you would start experimenting to solve the issues?
As it currently sits, I still think the new changes are for the better and I don't get a ton of the fall-offs that drive me nuts, but they are frustrating when they do happen. I will also say the limits for fall off on some of the bigger hits could be toned down to crash more easily. I also know from my time at that arcade dirtbike game with monster trucks that tuning this specific variable is ridiculously impossible to get "right" in all cases, which may be why it's a bit easier for me to accept where we currently are at.
I haven't noticed it myself, but it's obviously an issue for some people. Mostly when people lean back at the instant they land. The AWood gif posted above is a good example. "Don't do that" doesn't seem to be an answer anyone wants to hear, so I guess as an alternative I could prevent the rider from leaning all the way back under user control. That might leave a little cushion before it hits the limit.
SOAB_465 wrote:The pivot is above the CL of the sprockets though; the chain gets tighter when you compress the suspension. From a rough CAD model I think the distance between tangent points on top of the sprockets increases at least 3mm over the first half of the travel on a full sized bike, with 315mm of travel. The cheapest chains are rated at over 7000lbs tensile strength and they do break sometimes...
I don't see why that would matter. The only force applied when under power is along the top side of the chain. Haven't you ever noticed how the suspension compresses a little when you let the clutch out with the front brake on?
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
jlv wrote:
I don't see why that would matter. The only force applied when under power is along the top side of the chain. Haven't you ever noticed how the suspension compresses a little when you let the clutch out with the front brake on?
I don't really know anyone in sim that deliberately leans back when they land. Just looks that way from the Rider settings.
SOAB_465 wrote:The pivot is above the CL of the sprockets though; the chain gets tighter when you compress the suspension. From a rough CAD model I think the distance between tangent points on top of the sprockets increases at least 3mm over the first half of the travel on a full sized bike, with 315mm of travel. The cheapest chains are rated at over 7000lbs tensile strength and they do break sometimes...
I don't see why that would matter. The only force applied when under power is along the top side of the chain. Haven't you ever noticed how the suspension compresses a little when you let the clutch out with the front brake on?
That's what I calculated: as the suspension compresses through the first half of the stroke, the top side of the chain gets at least 3mm longer, while there is thousands of pounds of tension on it. That's where the stiffening effect comes from. If you watch a dirt bike do a burnout, you'll see the rear of the bike actually goes up when the bike is stalled up - as opposed to squatting down.
This poor clown demonstrates it fairly well after about 0:30 seconds
I can't remember the statics anymore, to do a FBD of the bike and one of the swing arm. But when there is a moment at the countershaft and rear axle, I know the sum of the moments about the swing arm pivot puts some force down on the rear tire and up on the chassis.
Again, I don't know if this will prevent AWood from landing 5th tapped and falling off the back, but it might help people find the bottoming resistance/plushness balance they are having trouble with
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