Lighting and erode.

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Mcguire103
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby Mcguire103 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:21 am

Wahlamt wrote:
Mcguire103 wrote:but its useless to people who cannot write code/script yeah?

You'll still benefit from what others use, but if you can't script, you can always learn ;)


true true.
but apart from timing tower in sx what else can be done/ what do you think can be done.
trying to get my head around why the sx timing tower is more important than anythng else

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mxsrider96
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby mxsrider96 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:34 am

Scripting has almost limitless options as far as I know
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby 808 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:25 pm

mxsrider96 wrote:Scripting has almost limitless options as far as I know

Could it make tough blocks move when you touch them instead of them literally eating you?
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby mxsrider96 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:42 pm

808 wrote:
mxsrider96 wrote:Scripting has almost limitless options as far as I know

Could it make tough blocks move when you touch them instead of them literally eating you?

I know there has been talk of allowing the blocks that move after a certain amount of time (IE mechanic barriers) to have collisions because of scripting, so I wouldn't be overly surprised if that was possible
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ColtonD719
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby ColtonD719 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:41 am

Back on the subject of erode,

I was able to check out a bit of today’s fun race on Unadilla smooth and was interested in how the erode played out.

The qualifier races were 8min +1 with the server erode apparently set on 4. The last qualifying race before UID grab was very full, at least 40 bikes. I thought the track rutted up very well at this setting. Unadilla smooth doesn’t really have much built in bumps/ruts, but by lap 2 there was already enough lines established to easily see. Throughout the race there were multiple ruts in almost every corner, and a variety of usable lines throughout the track. By the end of the short moto it was quite rough, with some lines getting a bit sketchy—it felt like a national should feel. Overall, for this race length and number of bikes, I thought it worked really well, especially considering the track was almost completely flat at the start.

For the first 20min +1 moto the server erode was set to 0.8. It took a few laps for any significant ruts/bumps to be established. Once those lines did show up, most riders would follow the established rut. By the end of the race there was basically one good line throughout the track and the overall roughness I would describe as what you’d see at the end of the first round of motos at your local weekend warrior track.

It was really interesting to me how well the qualifier roughed up, compared to the very tame results of the actual race. The qualifier worked well enough that now I’m back to questioning how necessary starter ruts actually are.

Of course, if they had kept the server erode at 4 for the 20min motos, it would probably be too extreme by the end. I probably would have set the erode to 1.6 for the 20min motos, keeping the same erode to race length ratio from the qualifiers. However, I do think the higher erode setting of the qualifier is what contributed to the nice multitude of lines at the start of the race. Theoretically, this is exactly what the erode limit settings should allow for. I haven’t looked at the tileinfo for this track, but it seems like something like this should work if the server erode is set to 1:

Code: Select all

erode_limit 0 4 4
erode_limit .5 .5 .5
erode_limit 1 0 0


The question is where exactly to put the middle and bottom limits.

Of course some people like the ultra tame erode settings because it’s easy to ride and fairly predictable once the main line gets established. But that’s not realistic. Real motocross on a national level is basically defined by the gnarliness of the ruts/bumps. I’ve only spectated at the pro nationals, but I remember racing the Spring Classic at Lake Whitney back in the day in the schoolboy class and the ruts were deep enough to rip your feet off the pegs on a normal, dry day. By the end of a long national moto, the lines should be chewed out bad enough that riders are searching the edges of the track for ways around the worst rough.
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby jlv » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:55 am

Disable erode_limit and let it get nasty! Not sure if scaling up with the 0 4 4 line is a good idea. It'll work as expected but it might be more clear to increase the erode_depth settings instead.

808 wrote:
mxsrider96 wrote:Scripting has almost limitless options as far as I know

Could it make tough blocks move when you touch them instead of them literally eating you?
Collision response isn't something that scripting would handle. If you wanted the bales to respond to collisions they'd have to be run through the low level collision code and synchronized over the network which would be impractical for a script.

If you want to do something like move the barriers after the start a script would be perfect for that.
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby barrington314 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:27 pm

ColtonD719 wrote:I do think the higher erode setting of the qualifier is what contributed to the nice multitude of lines at the start of the race. Theoretically, this is exactly what the erode limit settings should allow for. I haven’t looked at the tileinfo for this track, but it seems like something like this should work if the server erode is set to 1:


Exactly what I've been saying since before Anaheim 1. If it doesn't develop fast enough, no one is going to bother trying to cut in a new line. But that brings on another problem. Bumping up the erode depth or server side erode value makes the track get too choppy.

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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby barrington314 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:30 pm

The morning press ride sessions get more ruts per corner than we do all main event.
Image

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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby ColtonD719 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:44 am

barrington314 wrote:Exactly what I've been saying since before Anaheim 1. If it doesn't develop fast enough, no one is going to bother trying to cut in a new line. But that brings on another problem. Bumping up the erode depth or server side erode value makes the track get too choppy.

I can't really speak to SX; I'm not a good enough at SX player to judge properly. However, as far as MX goes, server erode 4 actually worked really well on Unadilla with 40 riders. The ruts shaped up very nicely, and while the bumps did get choppy several minutes into, they weren't unrealistically or unrideably so. With the right erode limit, I think you could have gone a full 20-30min at this setting and ended up with a challenging but realistic result.

Based on extensive single-player testing, I think that at these erode levels the choppiness is primarily affected by the erode radius, inner radius, displacement, and min/max slope settings. It is these settings also that, aside from friction/roll resist, determine the sensation of what type of dirt you're riding on (bigger, rounder bumps on sand; choppier, steeper bumps on clay).

BTW, I know you've done a lot of testing on this yourself, including the very valuable experience of having full gates to erode your tracks, so my apologies if I'm repeating stuff you've already discovered. I just wanted to put some of my observations out there as I feel quite confident that erode can work very well, and I'm curious to hear how they compare to you guys who have had more multiplayer testing experience.

I love racing with online erode. I haven't been in a race yet were the erode was worse or less realistic than having no erode. Of course the erode system/settings can always be improved (especially visibility), but the problem most of the time isn't the erode, it's the handful of kids raging because, surprise!, motocross gets more challenging the more bikes go around the track. You EMF guys should just do all the adjustments in the tileinfo, so that when somebody starts complaining about endurocross, you can just shrug and explain how the server erode is always set to 1. :wink:
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby ColtonD719 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:48 am

jlv wrote:Disable erode_limit and let it get nasty!

If erode_limit is not defined it defaults to
0 1 1
1 0 0

right?

Would this be a good way to disable it?
0 1 1
1 1 1

Good to know scaling up the 0 line may not be the best approach!
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby barrington314 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:32 am

ColtonD719 wrote:, so my apologies if I'm repeating stuff you've already discovered.

No apologies needed. I was just basically agreeing with you. May have come off a little... harsh (for lack of a better word). Continue the discussion. You have good points and some of your questions to JLV have also given me answers too.

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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby Phathry25 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:56 am

barrington314 wrote:The morning press ride sessions get more ruts per corner than we do all main event.
Image


One of MX Sim's ruts takes up the space of all 3 of those.

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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby jlv » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:43 am

ColtonD719 wrote:
jlv wrote:Disable erode_limit and let it get nasty!

If erode_limit is not defined it defaults to
0 1 1
1 0 0

right?

Would this be a good way to disable it?
0 1 1
1 1 1

That'll work. You don't actually need both lines though.

ColtonD719 wrote:Good to know scaling up the 0 line may not be the best approach!

Now that I think about it that might actually make sense if you're trying to make a super quick eroding top layer. If it's just the top inches I can see how it'd be better to scale that up instead of using a huge depth setting and scaling the rest down.
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby yzmxer608 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:05 pm

Phathry25 wrote:
barrington314 wrote:The morning press ride sessions get more ruts per corner than we do all main event.
Image


One of MX Sim's ruts takes up the space of all 3 of those.

The erode Barrington used on one of his custom tracks was really good for making small multiple ruts in corners. Darr used it on one of his tracks and it was awesome with 6 or so of us over a race.
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Re: Lighting and erode.

Postby Wahlamt » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:32 pm

Jays A1 ruts were pretty cool. Though they were too thin so they got all choppy, but quite cool otherwise.


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