Dyno balance

Post your suggestions here
Ryan721
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:52 pm
Team: Privateer

Dyno balance

Post by Ryan721 »

I'm speaking mainly about 250 dynos but as we obviously know the stock bikes are quite different power wise but on the other hand the factory bikes while they're different in a variety of categories, most top brands seem to figure out the engine work to compete at a similar hp level. Are we ever going to see a day in sim where there are factory version dynos that pep them up a little or at least balance them out to where you can actually compete on a dyno that isn't a ktm? I know a lot of people don't agree with this or don't care but having the whole field on the same bike is kinda old, for instance, other dynos may handle different or feel better in some parts of the track or under braking bumps or whatever the case is but because they don't have NEARLY the power of a ktm they can't be bothered to be touched or considered by the majority.
Any ideas or thoughts on this are appreciated by anyone.
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14012
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

Would you want the factory versions to all have identical power curves?
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
Quinten
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:18 pm
Team: QM1
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Quinten »

jlv wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:53 am Would you want the factory versions to all have identical power curves?
I think it would be interesting to see all the bikes on the same speed (power curve) because right now we're simply just choosing the fastest bike and trying to adapt to it. Instead, it may be more versatile and provide dyno differentiation if each of the newer dynos (FC, CRF, KTM, YAMAHA, etc.) not just factory editions felt different in how they reacted when riding. Could be anything from subtle suspension feelings, or more importantly how they cornered in higher speed vs lower speeds and so on.
Image
Ryan721
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:52 pm
Team: Privateer

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Ryan721 »

Quinten wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:59 am
jlv wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:53 am Would you want the factory versions to all have identical power curves?
I think it would be interesting to see all the bikes on the same speed (power curve) because right now we're simply just choosing the fastest bike and trying to adapt to it. Instead, it may be more versatile and provide dyno differentiation if each of the newer dynos (FC, CRF, KTM, YAMAHA, etc.) not just factory editions felt different in how they reacted when riding. Could be anything from subtle suspension feelings, or more importantly how they cornered in higher speed vs lower speeds and so on.
Yeah, I had a hard time wording what I wanted to say in a logical way but thanks for the input, my point was that the average fast rider irl has ecu, exhaust, and other simple mods that take a stock bike and make it competitive by having similar power as the top HP brands. The only reason I mentioned this was because I've known for a while that other dynos handle great or better than the ktm but since we're on stock engine mapped bikes there's no way to race at a competitive level it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the only thing we can do is suspension and that's it. I guess if everyone else wants to race the same dyno for the rest of the game's existence then I'm just beating a dead horse here.
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

I just want suspension made more in depth so I can come up with some new good stuff.
Quinten
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:18 pm
Team: QM1
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Quinten »

Ryan721 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:37 pm
I don't know if I would call them stock engines. A simple fix to this problem would just make every bike the same speed and just have the dynos setup up differently in ways they feel with nimbleness. Some riders tune their advance to be stiff and others to be loose. There are multiple other things that could be different amongst dynos.
Image
Andy_Hack
Posts: 2400
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:47 am
Team: SplitFire
Location: Germany/Bavaria
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Andy_Hack »

I've been saying it for years, stock bike dyno curves are great in my opinion, but it's undeniable that everyone uses the most powerful (overall best) dyno for almost 10 years now, even stock bikes like Kawas or Hondas aren't on KX or CR dynos anymore, but on KTM dynos instead, in my opinion that's quite stupid.

I can picture two scenarios:

1. You choose your brand then your prefered dynocurve named for example A,B,C,D,E... and 1-3 factory engine settings.
That way people would actually be able to run their bike brand, but would still have the opportunity to run the best dyno.

2. You choose your brand, but then get a page of engine settings in which you can tune your engine to your liking and have the presets of each years and brand's dyno.
Image
d4u5d6u7 wrote:good staff, nice skins, like
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14012
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

So basically factory versions of each bike where the power at each RPM is equal to the highest torque out of all the bikes at that RPM?

I.e. torque(rpm) = max(crtorque(rpm), kxtorque(rpm), rmtorque(rpm), sxtorque(rpm), yztorque(rpm))
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
JamesLayle721
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:20 pm
Team: JL Designs
Location: Florida

Re: Dyno balance

Post by JamesLayle721 »

Maybe make it so you can have a good setup for a 250sxf but its not as good/totally different on a yz250f.
Image
Discord: James Layle#0721
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14012
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

JamesLayle721 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:36 am Maybe make it so you can have a good setup for a 250sxf but its not as good/totally different on a yz250f.
How would that work? If one is .0000001% better everyone will use that one.
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
Ryan721
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:52 pm
Team: Privateer

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Ryan721 »

Between the dynos what other things go into programming the different brands is it just that one bike doesn't have as much power/torque and that's why it maybe rides better in certain parts of the track? Or is there more that goes into that, I'm sure there is I'm just trying to understand how these bikes can handle differently and what the variables are.
KTM57
Posts: 13754
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:42 am
Location: TX
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by KTM57 »

I like Andy's idea from a competitive perspective, and for the casual player, I like that it introduces perceived customization — even if it's just the same choices we currently have. Add a bar graph for a few arbitrary characteristics and we're getting somewhere!

I think it would be fantastic to try out bikes with simulated chassis geometry and mass for each dyno - especially since I'm sure they've improved since 2012. Power curves and gearing can only introduce so much variance. Some bikes would probably still suck, but if one of them corners better than the Husqvarna, you actually have a choice to make.
motokid499
Posts: 1504
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Premium MotoSpodes
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by motokid499 »

I think handling and stuff like that is so easily tunable in the advanced stability that any difference between dynos would be negligible. I can set up my bike to feel however I want it to feel through the advanced stability, the amount of options we have available to us in this game to tune handling characteristics is already way to high. I don't even like the amount of options we have now, so I definitely don't support adding more options.

I think a good way to get rid of the problem of everyone using the same dyno is to just make a factory version of every bike where they all weigh the same and all have the same peak hp and tq. Maybe 1hp more than whatever the fastest dyno is at the time. If you want options and differences, maybe give players the option to tweak the power curve, keeping same peak hp and torque. in a perfect world, we would want every bike on the gate to be the same. We can get that in mxs, so why not? We aren't being paid to endorse any brands here, so why would people give themselves a disadvantage riding anything else but the best bike?

Problem is, everyone wants their favourite bike to be competetive, but as long as there are differences in the bikes, there will always be a "best" one that people will run.
Tanner Rogers
Ryan721
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:52 pm
Team: Privateer

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Ryan721 »

KTM57 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:56 pm I like Andy's idea from a competitive perspective, and for the casual player, I like that it introduces perceived customization — even if it's just the same choices we currently have. Add a bar graph for a few arbitrary characteristics and we're getting somewhere!

I think it would be fantastic to try out bikes with simulated chassis geometry and mass for each dyno - especially since I'm sure they've improved since 2012. Power curves and gearing can only introduce so much variance. Some bikes would probably still suck, but if one of them corners better than the Husqvarna, you actually have a choice to make.
Yeah I like Andy's idea as well and speaking on advanced stability no one that I know of changes their advanced to make a bike handle differently. You get comfortable with a good advanced for your style and run it, if tracks evolve you might tweak a few things but most pros have been using the same advanced for long periods of time.
I don't care to change my advanced to change a bike's feel, I keep the same settings and only change dynos and that's when I see the handling differences which tells me that each bike probably isn't created equal aside from power.
KTM57
Posts: 13754
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:42 am
Location: TX
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by KTM57 »

Currently, all bikes of the same displacement share all characteristics except for power delivery and gearing - so they all weigh the same and have the same chassis with different engines.

I don't really change my advanced stability either, and I don't feel like those settings imitate changes like frame geometry or bike weight — but maybe an experienced stability tweaker could prove me wrong! The power curves already make a pretty big difference in handling.
Post Reply