Dyno balance

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Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

Even if I had access to a dyno and all the bikes and all the different pipes/cams/maps/etc, motor mods would be a non starter because it'd be a combinatorial explosion. It'd take hundreds of dyno runs to get all the combinations.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Ryan721 »

jlv wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:04 am Even if I had access to a dyno and all the bikes and all the different pipes/cams/maps/etc, motor mods would be a non starter because it'd be a combinatorial explosion. It'd take hundreds of dyno runs to get all the combinations.
Yeah I agree that much variation is way too much and I'm sure there are much more important things than a bike's power right now on the to do list, the only thing I really could see if an ecu tune and I think the majority would be perfectly happy with that alone.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Ryan721 »

KTM57 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:34 am Currently, all bikes of the same displacement share all characteristics except for power delivery and gearing - so they all weigh the same and have the same chassis with different engines.

I don't really change my advanced stability either, and I don't feel like those settings imitate changes like frame geometry or bike weight — but maybe an experienced stability tweaker could prove me wrong! The power curves already make a pretty big difference in handling.
Okay! thanks for the info that was one of my thoughts that if they are the same chassis then it's just feeling better in certain spots on the track because each dyno curve would be at a different power point.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

jlv wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:04 am Even if I had access to a dyno and all the bikes and all the different pipes/cams/maps/etc, motor mods would be a non starter because it'd be a combinatorial explosion. It'd take hundreds of dyno runs to get all the combinations.
What about a timing adjustment? Have low/mid/high with max degree's total so you cannot just advance everywhere?

I still feel like if there was a more 'simulation' side to tuning in general that would add some fun for people who are more savvy with setting stuff up which is realistic.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by motokid499 »

KTM57 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:34 am but maybe an experienced stability tweaker could prove me wrong!
90% of pro field runs stabilities made or tuned by me. I gotchu.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:09 am What about a timing adjustment? Have low/mid/high with max degree's total so you cannot just advance everywhere?

I still feel like if there was a more 'simulation' side to tuning in general that would add some fun for people who are more savvy with setting stuff up which is realistic.
Might make sense for vintage bikes but now everything has electronic ignitions that automatically use the correct timing for the RPM.

It's funny that on the one hand we want spec racer bikes that are exactly identical and on the other hand we want even more settings.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

jlv wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:05 am
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:09 am What about a timing adjustment? Have low/mid/high with max degree's total so you cannot just advance everywhere?

I still feel like if there was a more 'simulation' side to tuning in general that would add some fun for people who are more savvy with setting stuff up which is realistic.
Might make sense for vintage bikes but now everything has electronic ignitions that automatically use the correct timing for the RPM.

It's funny that on the one hand we want spec racer bikes that are exactly identical and on the other hand we want even more settings.
I mean you can definitely adjust timing in 100 RPM increments with EFI. Making it softer or more aggressive where you need.

I am always for having more adjustment as I am not afraid to try new stuff. I feel like in a simulation experience you should be rewarded for being creative and trying to find an edge.

Would detaching the 'dyno' from the bike and having a map selection for each bike be a possibility?
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by motokid499 »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:31 am Would detaching the 'dyno' from the bike and having a map selection for each bike be a possibility?
I'm interested in this. How would this work though? You're saying give us the ability to use a ktm dyno on a honda? Or having one "dyno" for every bike and being able to customize it?
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

motokid499 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:40 pm
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:31 am Would detaching the 'dyno' from the bike and having a map selection for each bike be a possibility?
I'm interested in this. How would this work though? You're saying give us the ability to use a ktm dyno on a honda? Or having one "dyno" for every bike and being able to customize it?
Both.

Pick your bike model under the 'bike' tab then have a separate tab for maps to be selected. Have the stock map then have all the other maps from the other bikes to choose from. This will get rid of the current model naming issue and excessive sized team packs when people want more than one dyno.

You could have timing sliders in a menu like suspension to have further adjustment to play with.

Example:

Low 1-5 Mid 1-5 High 1-5 Max 9

You have a max adjustment of say 9 like above. Stock setting is 3 on each adjustment so you have to deduct from one to increase another area. Does that make sense?
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

So people will intentionally run timings that lower their power output? Sounds unlikely to me.

A better question to answer is exactly what the spec bike dyno should look like.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

jlv wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:24 am So people will intentionally run timings that lower their power output? Sounds unlikely to me.

A better question to answer is exactly what the spec bike dyno should look like.
That was an example to make it a tuning tool. If there is no consequences to maxing timing in all categories what kind of help would that be? I do feel that if you could have a control on the dyno it could open opportunities to make other dynos better and accel in different area's.

Not sure if this is what you were thinking of but a spec approach from a track creation standpoint, if you were to make 250's have somewhere around to 45-50 HP like the factory level bikes it would make building tracks easier. It's tough to make a track ride good for a 250 without opening huge lines for the 450's. If there was a bit less of a gap it wouldn't be as difficult. On the 450 side, I don't think many riders really need much more power than stock say 60HP most of the work done is making the power more broad and useable.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by motokid499 »

Scrapping the idea of assigning any dyno to any bike, I think peter might be on to something. If every bike gets an option for identical "factory edition" engines, and we allow it to be tunable, I think that could work very nicely. Like Peter said, give a max value of like 9 for example, and have sliders where you can tune the power in each section of rpm range. Dividing the rpms low/mid/high like Peter suggested is a good idea. So for someone running a factory engine, stock settings would be 3/3/3 for low/mid/high. On a tighter, slower track you may want to run something like 4/3/2 For a max total of 9, or in sand maybe give more peak power in the top end.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Andy_Hack »

motokid499 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:37 pm Scrapping the idea of assigning any dyno to any bike
I actually think we should make this top priority to finally get rid of all the naming issues.

As much as i like the idea of stronger 250Fs, i'm a little concerned about how this might change the fun factor of 250Fs :?
I mean yeah, you can always pick an older dyno, but you'd find yourself at the strongest available eventually.
You can't use full factory dynos anyway, as they peak around 55HP these days (atleast the GP bikes), so apart from torque and power quite far up the rev range, we're almost talking about stock 450s.
That's actually a quite common issue in real life aswell, bikes get stronger and stronger and there's virtually no chance to slow them down without major problems with the manufacturers which of course want to stick to engine sizes they've been developing for over 15 years now.
Luckily this is a simulator, where you can actually just control it, the question is just... how?

I like Peter's idea, but once again people are going to run what's best, so i highly doubt seeing much variety.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

Andy_Hack wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:05 am
motokid499 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:37 pm Scrapping the idea of assigning any dyno to any bike
I actually think we should make this top priority to finally get rid of all the naming issues.

As much as i like the idea of stronger 250Fs, i'm a little concerned about how this might change the fun factor of 250Fs :?
I mean yeah, you can always pick an older dyno, but you'd find yourself at the strongest available eventually.
You can't use full factory dynos anyway, as they peak around 55HP these days (atleast the GP bikes), so apart from torque and power quite far up the rev range, we're almost talking about stock 450s.
That's actually a quite common issue in real life aswell, bikes get stronger and stronger and there's virtually no chance to slow them down without major problems with the manufacturers which of course want to stick to engine sizes they've been developing for over 15 years now.
Luckily this is a simulator, where you can actually just control it, the question is just... how?

I like Peter's idea, but once again people are going to run what's best, so i highly doubt seeing much variety.
I like the map idea because some people do use the 350 as well, getting rid of the naming issue should be one of if not the top priority for this. If JLV wanted to add a 'factory editon' or 'mod' dyno for 250's this would help close the gap for track creation.

That's why I was saying 45-50 HP, I think 55 HP would make it faster than a 450 likely with the weight difference accounted for and get rid of the fun factor like you said.

To me the issue is, in real life the 250's get a massive increase in HP from stock making them somewhere in the realm of a stock 450 HP wise with less TQ. It is pretty difficult to make tracks ride realistic when you have to find a balance between 41 HP and 58 HP. That is a big disparity.
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Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

The best way to limit what high HP bikes can do is to use realistically low traction values.

We already do have tuneable powerbands in the sense that you can choose different bikes. (The main problem now is KTM has been pretty much winning at every point on the curve.) When I did the first 450s the KX450F wasn't the most powerful but it was a torque monster. I was curious if it would be the supercross favorite because of that. Everyone went with the higher peak HP RMZ.
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