Dyno balance

Post your suggestions here
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

jlv wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:18 am The best way to limit what high HP bikes can do is to use realistically low traction values.

We already do have tuneable powerbands in the sense that you can choose different bikes. (The main problem now is KTM has been pretty much winning at every point on the curve.) When I did the first 450s the KX450F wasn't the most powerful but it was a torque monster. I was curious if it would be the supercross favorite because of that. Everyone went with the higher peak HP RMZ.
Yes you could do traction but that would take development and I am sure a ton of backlash of people being mad. Not saying it shouldn't happen but it is also realistic for 250's to be closer than they are currently.

Yes but that tuneability comes at the cost of more png files. :lol:

I think in the game the powerbands are used differently than real life and there is lots of following. Not many people test things and most go off of what everyone else uses. In 2016 there was a group of people who would use the Yamaha 450 dyno in MX for the race as it was more consistent than the
KTM.
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14011
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:30 am Yes you could do traction but that would take development and I am sure a ton of backlash of people being mad. Not saying it shouldn't happen but it is also realistic for 250's to be closer than they are currently.

Yes but that tuneability comes at the cost of more png files. :lol:

I think in the game the powerbands are used differently than real life and there is lots of following. Not many people test things and most go off of what everyone else uses. In 2016 there was a group of people who would use the Yamaha 450 dyno in MX for the race as it was more consistent than the
KTM.
Lots of drag + lots of traction = huge advantage for higher HP.

If I did the tuning feature everyone would just compare notes and run the exact same settings. It would be a total waste of time.

The spec bikes idea makes sense. The question is what the spec dynos should be. I don't think just randomly adding 5 HP to the 250's is a good idea.
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

jlv wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:02 am
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:30 am Yes you could do traction but that would take development and I am sure a ton of backlash of people being mad. Not saying it shouldn't happen but it is also realistic for 250's to be closer than they are currently.

Yes but that tuneability comes at the cost of more png files. :lol:

I think in the game the powerbands are used differently than real life and there is lots of following. Not many people test things and most go off of what everyone else uses. In 2016 there was a group of people who would use the Yamaha 450 dyno in MX for the race as it was more consistent than the
KTM.
Lots of drag + lots of traction = huge advantage for higher HP.

If I did the tuning feature everyone would just compare notes and run the exact same settings. It would be a total waste of time.

The spec bikes idea makes sense. The question is what the spec dynos should be. I don't think just randomly adding 5 HP to the 250's is a good idea.
I agree that the friction will make an advantage for higher HP. If a new traction was made I am sure erode would need changes as well. It might not be the perfect fix but a faster 250 probably is the easier solution.

Didn't you add power to the 2009 250 dyno's? I thought I remembered you saying that you did at one point. If that is true, it would explain the disparity because the 450's have improved by a larger margin than 250's have.
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

Forgot the last part, I would say spec dyno's for 450 would be FC and CRF as the two are both used and for 250's I think pretty well everyone uses the SXF and the odd FC.
Wilson156
Posts: 988
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:28 am
Team: AektivCo
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Wilson156 »

jlv wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:02 am If I did the tuning feature everyone would just compare notes and run the exact same settings. It would be a total waste of time.

The spec bikes idea makes sense. The question is what the spec dynos should be. I don't think just randomly adding 5 HP to the 250's is a good idea.
I don't think that's necessarily true, I think it'd give people more options to make the bike fit there riding style. People compare suspension yet something that works for me might not work for someone else which results in a lot of us running different stuff. Same goes for gearing and rider positions and stuff like that too.
Robert Wilson | AektivCo
Image
VUSTTOS
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:02 am
Team: Spanish MX Gamers
Location: GPS not working

Re: Dyno balance

Post by VUSTTOS »

If I'm not wrong all this is just so you can see these bikes in different colors? I constantly see people complaining about more important stuff lol
Image
Image
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

VUSTTOS wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:32 pm If I'm not wrong all this is just so you can see these bikes in different colors? I constantly see people complaining about more important stuff lol
Image
Not exactly. Other points have been mentioned in this thread. This would optimize team packs, you wouldn't need multiple of the identical PNG saved if a 'dyno' was chose separate from the bike itself.
VUSTTOS
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:02 am
Team: Spanish MX Gamers
Location: GPS not working

Re: Dyno balance

Post by VUSTTOS »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:46 pmNot exactly. Other points have been mentioned in this thread. This would optimize team packs, you wouldn't need multiple of the identical PNG saved if a 'dyno' was chose separate from the bike itself.
Then that sounds better.
Image
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14011
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:41 am Didn't you add power to the 2009 250 dyno's? I thought I remembered you saying that you did at one point. If that is true, it would explain the disparity because the 450's have improved by a larger margin than 250's have.
No. I put the numbers in directly from the source. But there was a big jump because I switched sources around then. Not sure if it was 2009 or not.
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

jlv wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:04 am
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:41 am Didn't you add power to the 2009 250 dyno's? I thought I remembered you saying that you did at one point. If that is true, it would explain the disparity because the 450's have improved by a larger margin than 250's have.
No. I put the numbers in directly from the source. But there was a big jump because I switched sources around then. Not sure if it was 2009 or not.
Okay that's what it was. I think the 2011 and 2013 dyno's were never used because they weren't better than the 2009's were. Didn't you at one point nerf the 2009 SXF from the original dyno?

I still think it would be beneficial for the 250's to get a bump in power to be closer to 450's.
motokid499
Posts: 1504
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Premium MotoSpodes
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by motokid499 »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 250f rider model weighs 150lb and the 450f rider model weighs 175lb? If we add power to the 250's, past a certain point, the 250's will literally be faster than 450's. Personally I could do without the rider weight variation, I'd be all for making both rider weights identical. 175lb for both maybe? We already have stupidly high traction levels and can basically go upside down in bowl corners, the lighter 150lb rider just makes it even easier to keep traction when holding g's around a bowl. Im guessing this is why you're able to hold much more aggressive lean angles with the 250f.
Tanner Rogers
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

motokid499 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:56 pm Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 250f rider model weighs 150lb and the 450f rider model weighs 175lb? If we add power to the 250's, past a certain point, the 250's will literally be faster than 450's. Personally I could do without the rider weight variation, I'd be all for making both rider weights identical. 175lb for both maybe? We already have stupidly high traction levels and can basically go upside down in bowl corners, the lighter 150lb rider just makes it even easier to keep traction when holding g's around a bowl. Im guessing this is why you're able to hold much more aggressive lean angles with the 250f.
This is why I mentioned going lower than the 'actual' HP that factory 250's have in my earlier post. The 450 weighs 6lbs more as well. Weight isn't always the enemy either though. I don't think changing the weights would be a great idea, having different handling characteristics is realistic.

I am pretty sure the 2009 KTM made nearly 44 HP before the nerf. I don't remember exactly which dyno source JLV used but I do know in that year the KTM was a outlier by multiple HP over the competition. Nothing was broken lap time wise 250 vs 450 and that was against slower 450's than we have now. The KTM also had tighter gearing with the 6 speed transmission. I think it was more of an issue of parity between the 250's that it was nerfed. In my opinion there was more of a fun factor with the higher HP 250.
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14011
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:21 am Okay that's what it was. I think the 2011 and 2013 dyno's were never used because they weren't better than the 2009's were. Didn't you at one point nerf the 2009 SXF from the original dyno?

I still think it would be beneficial for the 250's to get a bump in power to be closer to 450's.
I looked it up and you're right. Not sure why I did that. There was a weird bump between 12,000 and 13,500 in the old 2009 sxf chart and that's what I cut out.
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:10 pm This is why I mentioned going lower than the 'actual' HP that factory 250's have in my earlier post. The 450 weighs 6lbs more as well. Weight isn't always the enemy either though. I don't think changing the weights would be a great idea, having different handling characteristics is realistic.
I'd take the factory 250 HP claims with a grain of salt. There's lots of incentive to exaggerate so I wouldn't believe it unless I saw a side by side dyno comparison with a stock bike.
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 2993
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Dyno balance

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

jlv wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:05 am
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:21 am Okay that's what it was. I think the 2011 and 2013 dyno's were never used because they weren't better than the 2009's were. Didn't you at one point nerf the 2009 SXF from the original dyno?

I still think it would be beneficial for the 250's to get a bump in power to be closer to 450's.
I looked it up and you're right. Not sure why I did that. There was a weird bump between 12,000 and 13,500 in the old 2009 sxf chart and that's what I cut out.
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:10 pm This is why I mentioned going lower than the 'actual' HP that factory 250's have in my earlier post. The 450 weighs 6lbs more as well. Weight isn't always the enemy either though. I don't think changing the weights would be a great idea, having different handling characteristics is realistic.
I'd take the factory 250 HP claims with a grain of salt. There's lots of incentive to exaggerate so I wouldn't believe it unless I saw a side by side dyno comparison with a stock bike.
Maybe check with Chex and see if Racetech has something?
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14011
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Dyno balance

Post by jlv »

I have heard that some factory bikes aren't very fast. Basically the advantage they have over stock bikes is they only have to last for an hour or two. So they probably let them rev a little more and run a little closer to the edge on compression ratios. It's not going to make 25% more power. When the difference is that big it's probably someone comparing crank HP to wheel HP.
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
Post Reply