Front Flips EVERYTHING

[motokid499]

Do you understand 2-wheeled physics at all? This game has no side to side rider lean so to turn we need to counter steer. This game is 100% counter steering. What in the hell are you saying that 100 leveling is realistic? If I lean my bike over irl, my bike wont naturally come back up. If anything, 100 leveling is unrealistic, do we have a magical force irl that pushes our bike back up for us? No. Irl we have the luxury of being able to lean on the bike, we can't do this in game, but I dont think there would be any way to properly replicate that anyway. Other than leaning, riding a motorcycle is all counter steering. If you stand yourself back up from a lean angle irl, what are you doing to do that? You're counter steering your way back to vertical, there is no magical force pushing you back up.

And if you really want to know the reason the times are rediculous it's because they have trained themselves to be able to ride on HYPER unrealistic advanced stability setups.

Most pro's run around 20-25 ish leveling. I would imagine the most realistic leveling would be zero, because then the setting has no affect on your counter steering and you you have full control of your bars, but as far as the most realistic feeling leveling I would say around 15. At 15 the bike want to fall over if you dont use your analog stick to control your counter steer, just like irl if I lean the bike over and then crank my bars completely straight, the bike is going to want to fall over because I'm not counter steering to stand the bike back up or maintain my lean angle. 100 leveling? Realistic? Cmon guy... Do you have training wheels irl?

And for the steering damping being realistic at 50...lol you're telling me that irl you are only capable of turning your bars as quick as your sim rider with 50 steering damping? Oh boy your bearings must be shot buddy, because I can turn mine pretty quick just fine. In game realistic setting I would say is around 20 depending on your steering strength and max steering force settings. Most pro's run their steering damping around 30-45 but i've seen people (seabolt you weirdo) that run theirs upwards of 55.

For the roll limit angle and factor I don't have much to say, I agree with you. They are unrealistic, but I feel they are still needed for this game because irl you have a 'feeling' of when you need to stop leaning. In game you really dont have this feeling. Some people run their roll limit angles and factors quite unrealistic, making the bike stop completely when they have reached their target lean angle, but a lot of other fast pro's run their roll limit factor extremely low just so they get that slight feeling when they reach their roll limit angle like "hey, you're getting close to eating dirt, dont lean over too much farther".

Well, the tracks are made BEFORE the event, not after, and thus arent exactly perfect either. Also the surface in game is perfect all the time and constantly changing in real life. And it's easy to have balls in the sim vs real life. I'd rather have something that feels accurate to ride than something that meets the exact lap times of the real tracks...

100% agree. The problem is, races will bitch and complain if they dont have a track as smooth as concrete. This is the only unrealistic thing about the game imo, the supercross tracks. This is where the whole fun factor argument comes in though. What would you enjoy more; riding a perfectly watered and groomed track, or riding a rutted bumpy destroyed track? Maybe i'm weird, but i'd rather rail on a nice freshly groomed track. Wait it gets better... Just like in real life, people that play sim prefer to have a nice smooth rail-able track, claiming it increases the "fun factor". It is still a video game remember, but yes I will admit the tracks we play on are unrealistic and allow us to go much faster than we should be able to. I myself wouldnt mind a realistic rutted bumpy SX track, but others would cry about it until its concrete again.

For the rest of what you're saying, it just sounds like the typical bitching of someone whos mad because they expect to be able to rail in game like they do irl. You can't play the game like you ride irl. In real life, you do things on the bike you arent conscious of. You just do it. You cant catch yourself and just be like "woah hey im counter steering right now, okay im turning my bars very slightly and returning to vertical". You arent conscious of it happening but you do it. The game is the same way, after awhile you arent conscious of your countersteering. You want all these changes to the physics when the only flaw is your own riding.

[motokid499]

DP sorry for all the typo's and error's, I was in a hurry.

[edodane]

Honestly, I just think you need to train. It happened to everyone to fall like that, look at the setups on the forum and compare them, try different. And probably your setup is NOT good if you can't jump, because there are not only the pros with the "unrealistic physics" that are able to do that. I'm so slow in the game but i can still jump, scrub, whip, wheelie and so on...

[RSmithDRIFT]

Do you understand 2-wheeled physics at all? This game has no side to side rider lean so to turn we need to counter steer. This game is 100% counter steering. What in the hell are you saying that 100 leveling is realistic? If I lean my bike over irl, my bike wont naturally come back up. If anything, 100 leveling is unrealistic, do we have a magical force irl that pushes our bike back up for us? No. Irl we have the luxury of being able to lean on the bike, we can't do this in game, but I dont think there would be any way to properly replicate that anyway. Other than leaning, riding a motorcycle is all counter steering. If you stand yourself back up from a lean angle irl, what are you doing to do that? You're counter steering your way back to vertical, there is no magical force pushing you back up.

Yes their is, it's called a gyro... look at the vid JLV posted to this thread even. EVEN WITHOUT THE RIDER THE BIKE STAYED VERTICAL. IT EVEN RESISTED THE FORCES ATTEMPTING TO THROUGH IT OFF BALANCE untill it finally hit the jump face crooked and stopped. I can "Ghost ride" my bike quite easily, it'll keep going straight and upright for a long time. Because it has two very powerful gyro's as part of it's design. They are the wheels. Who knew right?? Yes, the bike levels it'self. I've never in my life and i've been trained on bmx my entire childhood and switched over to MTB as an adult and have rode a few different dirt bikes on multiple occasions to know the differences though admittingly I dont have any supercross experience. But that's basically what a BMX track is. Just without the motor. All 2 wheeled devices have 2 gyro's and caster, the effect of both keeps them vertical at honestly more than 100% I'd say it's more like 125-150% ratio. They seriously want to stay vertical. You have to force them over to make them turn. It takes both leaning and steering. Thankfully steering helps you lean due to the caster. Do you know what caster is?? Cars have it too... it's what makes them track STRAIGHT! Cars have much less than bikes do. That's why when you let go of the steering wheel the front tires will track straight and the car will follow. A bike does the same thing but even more. Also, you have a gyro between your ears. That helps you balance also. It naturally does this so when you decide you want to go straight your body natrually centers it'self and helps the bike do so. You dont have to do it intentionally. That's why I say it's beyond 100% I say the bike is 100% but with a human riding it it's more like 125-150 depending on the person since humans vary. Maybe even 200% is possible for some people with a keen since of balance.

And if you really want to know the reason the times are rediculous it's because they have trained themselves to be able to ride on HYPER unrealistic advanced stability setups.

Most pro's run around 20-25 ish leveling. I would imagine the most realistic leveling would be zero, because then the setting has no affect on your counter steering and you you have full control of your bars, but as far as the most realistic feeling leveling I would say around 15. At 15 the bike want to fall over if you dont use your analog stick to control your counter steer, just like irl if I lean the bike over and then crank my bars completely straight, the bike is going to want to fall over because I'm not counter steering to stand the bike back up or maintain my lean angle. 100 leveling? Realistic? Cmon guy... Do you have training wheels irl?

No I do not. And yes it is realistic, see above. Letting go of the stick does not simulate cranking the bars straight instantly. It represents no longer applying any force to them. Equivalent of letting go if you could balance yourself on the bike without holding on. And what happens is the bike will gradually go back to going straight, because of the caster and gyro effects I described above. It most definately will not fall over. Now yes if you jerk the bars dead straight while leaned over it will make the bike fall over, but you'd have to apply alot of force to do that and it'd be highly against any instinctive action you'd want to take so you'd have to force yourself to do it honestly. Because caster and the fact that your tire is round means that steering and lean angle go one in the same on a bike and to do so would actually be countersteering and countersteering without slipangle = overcorrection. You would never want to do this. At 100% the steering you do represents your actions on the bike.

And for the steering damping being realistic at 50...lol you're telling me that irl you are only capable of turning your bars as quick as your sim rider with 50 steering damping? Oh boy your bearings must be shot buddy, because I can turn mine pretty quick just fine. In game realistic setting I would say is around 20 depending on your steering strength and max steering force settings. Most pro's run their steering damping around 30-45 but i've seen people (seabolt you weirdo) that run theirs upwards of 55.

Well, the thing is at 100% leveling your roll damping and steering damping must match or you will get uncontrollable wobble. And 50 is realistic because of the weight of the bike. Dirtbikes are heavy. I can throw my BMX around easier than my MTB and a dirtbike is WAY heavier. My bmx has a value in this game I'd say of around 20 while my mtb would be around 30... 50 for a dirtbike is being lienient. I can lay it down easily in game.

For the roll limit angle and factor I don't have much to say, I agree with you. They are unrealistic, but I feel they are still needed for this game because irl you have a 'feeling' of when you need to stop leaning. In game you really dont have this feeling. Some people run their roll limit angles and factors quite unrealistic, making the bike stop completely when they have reached their target lean angle, but a lot of other fast pro's run their roll limit factor extremely low just so they get that slight feeling when they reach their roll limit angle like "hey, you're getting close to eating dirt, dont lean over too much farther".

The lack of roll limit is a requirement of being able to turn with a 100% leveling value. Because that means 90* vertical is always level. In a berm you need more than what you need on flat ground. With the 25% leveling the bike finds its "level" at the angle you become balanced at, hell you can balance the bike without any stick input at a 45* angle LMAO. So you dont have the problem of being limited by it in a berm. Also the 100% leveling and 0 roll limit gives you a very solid turning feel. You can really feel that front tire "wash out point" like you can in real life as well as the back tires slip point when applying throttle or brakes. I dont feel this at all at 25%. It feels like it's dead honestly.

Well, the tracks are made BEFORE the event, not after, and thus arent exactly perfect either. Also the surface in game is perfect all the time and constantly changing in real life. And it's easy to have balls in the sim vs real life. I'd rather have something that feels accurate to ride than something that meets the exact lap times of the real tracks...

100% agree. The problem is, races will bitch and complain if they dont have a track as smooth as concrete. This is the only unrealistic thing about the game imo, the supercross tracks. This is where the whole fun factor argument comes in though. What would you enjoy more; riding a perfectly watered and groomed track, or riding a rutted bumpy destroyed track? Maybe i'm weird, but i'd rather rail on a nice freshly groomed track. Wait it gets better... Just like in real life, people that play sim prefer to have a nice smooth rail-able track, claiming it increases the "fun factor". It is still a video game remember, but yes I will admit the tracks we play on are unrealistic and allow us to go much faster than we should be able to. I myself wouldnt mind a realistic rutted bumpy SX track, but others would cry about it until its concrete again.

For the rest of what you're saying, it just sounds like the typical bitching of someone whos mad because they expect to be able to rail in game like they do irl. You can't play the game like you ride irl. In real life, you do things on the bike you arent conscious of. You just do it. You cant catch yourself and just be like "woah hey im counter steering right now, okay im turning my bars very slightly and returning to vertical". You arent conscious of it happening but you do it. The game is the same way, after awhile you arent conscious of your countersteering. You want all these changes to the physics when the only flaw is your own riding.

I agree about this, but what I was getting at was more of the need for a terain deformation system such as MX Supercross and also that the tracks need to be made AFTER the race so that it's accurate to the design of the actual race. Basically, the tracks always end up different from the pre build blue prints in some way.

And I should be able to atleast ride like I am able to in real life. The in game rider should have the same instincts as a real person would. Because you CAN NOT simulate the feel playing a sim. You can get the physics right and all but you have to have the rider be a human that you are giving instruction to. You cannot make it to where you have to control the rider's ever single movement with a controller because that's just not right. You cant feel through a controller. Now give me a set of handle bars with force feedback, something on par with my sim racing rig (G25 with a perfect FOV) to control the game with and sure, give me full control as the rider, but I better be wearing full mo cap suit and Oculous rift for it to put my full movements into the game LMAO. Till then, the stick for me is nothing more than giving the rider instructions on how to ride the bike. HE is riding the bike. I am telling him how.

[motokid499]

Idk man you sound beyond my knowledge. That and I also don't feel like writting another response lol.

Game feels super realistic to me, and a lot of fast irl pros who play the game agree. Maybe PM jlv about your concerns about the game and see if he has anything to say about it. You mentioned you've done some coding for simulators before, maybe you can work together or something if you're so confident that you can "fix it" as you said. I'm almost postive jlv said something about releasing the games source files awhile back, probably in the very distant future, but still. He might be open to another coder's opinion if the criticism isnt too hostile.

[Snopro704]

Guess what pal?! Even if JLV tuned this game to your perfect liking, you would still suck at it! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that as far as real simulation goes that this game shits on MXvATV and MXGP. Maybe you think you're just too smart for this game, if that's the case then here's a cookie, but I'd say as a side project JLV has done an outstanding job figuring out a MX Simulator that is fun and mimics real riding using the tools he has along with making it fun. Once you spend time on one good pro setup to the point where you can play this game well you will appreciate how good it feels. I think the greatest part about this game is how long it takes to get good at it, as it separates riders. Since you can go balls to the wall and hit SX triples right away, the incredible rigor forces you to not hit certain lines until you are good enough to be consistent, making the rate of progression slightly more real and interesting to observe. I remember wanting to harm someone because of this game, but seeing how good the pros executed the physics of the game made me work at it to be a pro myself, regardless of how stupid the game can feel at times.

Overall just enjoy the game for what it is, accept that it is the most realistic motocross simulation experience, and stop trying to fix it for yourself.

[RSmithDRIFT]

Guess what pal?! Even if JLV tuned this game to your perfect liking, you would still suck at it! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that as far as real simulation goes that this game shits on MXvATV and MXGP. Maybe you think you're just too smart for this game, if that's the case then here's a cookie, but I'd say as a side project JLV has done an outstanding job figuring out a MX Simulator that is fun and mimics real riding using the tools he has along with making it fun. Once you spend time on one good pro setup to the point where you can play this game well you will appreciate how good it feels. I think the greatest part about this game is how long it takes to get good at it, as it separates riders. Since you can go balls to the wall and hit SX triples right away, the incredible rigor forces you to not hit certain lines until you are good enough to be consistent, making the rate of progression slightly more real and interesting to observe. I remember wanting to harm someone because of this game, but seeing how good the pros executed the physics of the game made me work at it to be a pro myself, regardless of how stupid the game can feel at times.

Overall just enjoy the game for what it is, accept that it is the most realistic motocross simulation experience, and stop trying to fix it for yourself.

Yea I would still suck at it for a little while, but it wouldnt be for infuriating reasons. And I'd then have the desire to keep working at it.

and fixing things for myself is how I operate. You should see what I did with rfactor.

And honestly, I cant say it shits on MX Reflex because though it is obviously more arcade, it does what it does WAY better. And it's actually fun and feels right to ride. This, does not. This feels like an alien to ride and one that clearly hates me and makes me want to kill it with every ounce of my being. Just like rFactor did when I first got it. Now I've got rFactor tuned perfectly and everyone who tries my physics agrees and it not only gives proper lap times, but it feels right to do so in every way. It did none of those things when I started. I'm still developing the tires in the "feels" department 3 years later because it's such a never ending process and everything is so subjective. But what I didnt run into in the car sim community was complete and total negativity for doing so. HOLY FUCKING SHIT you mx riders have some fucking ego's. Just because you got good at doing something doesnt make it perfect and it damn sure doesnt mean that it shouldnt be improved upon. W T F. Your like a little girl blaming her brother cause she lost his ball. You litterally admitt how hard the learning curve is, which is proof as to how flawed it is, and then say that's it's best feature?? Ok let me fuck up some physics even more then and release it with the promise of "the harder it is the more realistic it is" and yall will buy it up like it's go;ing out of fucking style. The car sim community went through that phase over a decade ago. Thank god we are completely past that now. MX sim community is just beginning, so of course yall are still immature af about this. Damn cryin shame too... Amazing what's possible once you outgrow your pathetic fucking ego's

[aeffertz]

I've never seen someone get this upset over not wanting to learn a new game.

[RSmithDRIFT]

I've never seen a community so hell bent obsessed with sticking to whats clearly wrong and being offended by the thought of fixing it...

[Snopro704]

Want to know why a car racing simulator is going to be much easier initially? Because driving a car is a lot fucking easier than riding motocross. If u don't enjoy a challenge then go play the joke of a game that is MXvATV. And have your buddies over to play it with u cause they'll be mastering a highway supercross track in about 5 minutes, why make something worth getting good at right?

Go tell Ryan Dungey that supercross is fucked cause you suck at it and can't keep up with him, I'm sure he'll find a bike setup for you and change real world physics just so you don't suck anymore.

[RSmithDRIFT]

Want to know why a car racing simulator is going to be much easier initially? Because driving a car is a lot fucking easier than riding motocross. If u don't enjoy a challenge then go play the joke of a game that is MXvATV. And have your buddies over to play it with u cause they'll be mastering a highway supercross track in about 5 minutes, why make something worth getting good at right?

Go tell Ryan Dungey that supercross is fucked cause you suck at it and can't keep up with him, I'm sure he'll find a bike setup for you and change real world physics just so you don't suck anymore.

That is not how it works and you know it.

I want this game to reach its full potential. It has the ability to do so. But it just isnt their yet.

I'm not saying it'll be easier once it's fixed cause it wont. It'll still be hard as fuck and have a steep learning curve. But it'll be for the right reasons. Right now it's for the wrong reasons.

I want this game to feel right because I hate how much of a joke MXvsATV series is and it kills me that this horribly flawed game is the only sim option...

Car sims are not easy initially either especailly with a controller. The wheel makes all the difference in the world to someone who is trained with one. But we dont have anything like that for MX so we are stuck with the controller sadly.

To be real if I were wearing a mo cap suit and had a force feedback set of handlebars to ride with in this game it's sim mode would be perfect. Sadly we arent on that level yet and it's just torture forcing us to mimic it with a damn joystick. That's all I'm saying and we need to fix it so the rider behaves on the motorcycle like he would in real life and not direct with the joystick movements because well that is severely limiting and makes riding a proper lap almost impossible. Which is why this game is infuriating to learn. It's not hard, it's infuriating. Theirs a big difference.

[RSmithDRIFT]

Want to know why a car racing simulator is going to be much easier initially? Because driving a car is a lot fucking easier than riding motocross. If u don't enjoy a challenge then go play the joke of a game that is MXvATV. And have your buddies over to play it with u cause they'll be mastering a highway supercross track in about 5 minutes, why make something worth getting good at right?

Go tell Ryan Dungey that supercross is fucked cause you suck at it and can't keep up with him, I'm sure he'll find a bike setup for you and change real world physics just so you don't suck anymore.

and yea, highway supercross tracks...
MX Sim Anahiem 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdI_D5EOcsg

MX Reflex Anahiem 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXcue62Ww3U

On board MX Reflex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPb1GLdW9KY

But you know, reflex is so freaking easy and fake and just hold it wide open all the time right?


And yes, MX Sim's physics are clearly perfect as proven by these video's...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfZeMdrBIhA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2sq-o1IirM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUQGEEPxCvU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuRuwyIFH0k

As you can see, inertia's and gyro behavior as well as rider is clearly on point...

Though this one is really good at showing how real this game can be while also displaying a few of these physics flaws.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZw0mrM9RV0

[RSmithDRIFT]

Problem solved... Game still has the physics issues described but I found out 90% of the problem is that the game glitches out when you use 100% leveling and 100% steering strength at the same time, but the higher the steer strength the better it turns so I found 98% works great. That and a suspension setup from a pro really helped me solve the front flip/nose dive/bounce issue DRAMATICALLY!

I'm VERY VERY Satisfied with the results.

If the bouncy rider were fixed it really WOULD be perfect now

[Snopro704]

You're just trying to make it feel like MXvATV because that's what your'e comfortable with.. The bike doesn't level itself, and you will get so much more out THIS game if you try to get used to the different turning. "Bouncy" is just the way it feels because in MXvATV it just feels like you're floating on a stabilized cloud that won't let you tip over. We've probably all been more comfortable with MXvATV, but this this isn't MXvATV so you're not fixing the game, you're just ruining it for yourself because you don't like change.

[motokid499]

physics flaws

Just wondering have you tried the other motocross simulator on the market? Mx-Bikes? It's developed by PiBoSo, maybe try that game out and see if its more suited for you.

http://www.mx-bikes.com/

I find it fun and still play it every once in awhile, I played it a lot at one point but it didn't give me that realistic feeling that MX Simulator brought me. Anyways, check it out. I know advertising another motocross simulator on the mxs forums is kinda weird but if mxs is really making you this upset then just try another game man lol