Ground Friction and Resistance Index

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ShackAttack12
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Re: Ground Friction and Resistance Index

Postby ShackAttack12 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:53 pm

jlv wrote:
ShackAttack12 wrote:You see, the terrain is so fricken smooth in MXS that track creators then have to compensate with unrealistic friction to allow the bike to lean over. If we had realistic ruts (and MXS physics allowed the bike to stick in the rut), we wouldn't need unrealistic friction numbers, and you'd have to pick your lines better. What a concept!

I'm not so sure about that. Tiny ruts are extremely difficult even in real life where you can feel them. A lot of the reason to use high friction is to let you save it when you over/undershoot a rut.

Slippery is just harder in general. More realistic but more frustrating.


I totally understand the strategy of using higher friction to make things easier. However, I feel like the community is slowly squeezing realism out of this game (Suspension,etc), and has completely removed the traction element from the racing experience. I'd be fine with friction that was slightly higher than real life (maybe 0.9 or so), but >1.1 friction is just ludicrous to me. It's like riding on super smooth asphalt tracks.

A good part of motocross is throttle control, and in some cases you may want a lot of tire spin, but it really depends on the terrain. If you're riding on a hard packed track, you can't just hold the throttle pinned everywhere or else you'll be flat on your ass!

In real life, front end traction is constantly on my mind when riding, especially in flat corners and especially on dry days. In fact, i'm probably about 75% more worried about the front end than the back end in terms of traction. With realistic friction settings in MXS, i find myself doing the exact same thing, and even change my lines in order to find a rut or use a berm instead or round out the turn and flat track it.
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Re: Ground Friction and Resistance Index

Postby M@xTizZz » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:12 pm

jlv wrote:When there's banking in the form of a berm or rut you can achieve any lean angle regardless of friction as long as the banking is steep enough. When trying to guesstimate friction from lean it has to be a flat corner.


oh okay, makes senses
so yeah 45 degrees is close to the maximum i guess
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Re: Ground Friction and Resistance Index

Postby checkerz » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:02 pm

It's been awhile since i've done this, but amazing the change you feel when you run with erode on. Slicker traction feels planted still. I guess same effect as having a berm or a rut as you have some resistance when leaning over.

You don't have to prove to me that we're too sticky, but actually finding that magic traction? That's the hard part.

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Re: Ground Friction and Resistance Index

Postby jlv » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:21 am

Ezra wrote:Also, i feel like the tire collisions being as large as they are makes small ruts quite difficult, as theres no real way to get a tire to "stick" in a rut, really its just like a bunch of little berms, with the tire behaving as a sphere on an incline plane...

The wheel collisions are torus shaped. The only exception is when two wheels collide in which case it uses an approximation using spheres. (It turns out torus vs torus collision detection is really complicated.)

ShackAttack12 wrote:I totally understand the strategy of using higher friction to make things easier. However, I feel like the community is slowly squeezing realism out of this game (Suspension,etc), and has completely removed the traction element from the racing experience. I'd be fine with friction that was slightly higher than real life (maybe 0.9 or so), but >1.1 friction is just ludicrous to me. It's like riding on super smooth asphalt tracks.

A good part of motocross is throttle control, and in some cases you may want a lot of tire spin, but it really depends on the terrain. If you're riding on a hard packed track, you can't just hold the throttle pinned everywhere or else you'll be flat on your ass!

In real life, front end traction is constantly on my mind when riding, especially in flat corners and especially on dry days. In fact, i'm probably about 75% more worried about the front end than the back end in terms of traction. With realistic friction settings in MXS, i find myself doing the exact same thing, and even change my lines in order to find a rut or use a berm instead or round out the turn and flat track it.

I can't disagree with any of that. >1.1 is like road racing traction. One thing that might be worth exploring is lower traction but with a curve that helps you save it after the initial slip. If you think about the holy grail of perfect loamy dirt, its best quality isn't actually higher overall traction, it's that when you lose traction it happens slowly enough that you can catch it before you're on your elbow. I think that's because it has a high sliding friction compared to static friction. The blue groove hardpack that everyone hates is the opposite, once it breaks traction it's gone. Lots of static friction with low sliding friction.

That's why my SX traction had that 1.5 ramp up (albeit at very high slip rates). I was trying to add some saveability to it. Now I'm thinking maybe I should have made an initial fall off with a smaller ramp up that kicks in sooner. Maybe something like .9 @ 0-2 f/s, .75 @ 3 f/s and 1.0 at 5 f/s. The idea being you'd feel the drop off at 2 f/s but be saved by the slightly higher friction when it ramps up.

checkerz wrote:It's been awhile since i've done this, but amazing the change you feel when you run with erode on. Slicker traction feels planted still. I guess same effect as having a berm or a rut as you have some resistance when leaning over.

You don't have to prove to me that we're too sticky, but actually finding that magic traction? That's the hard part.

I'd have to double check to be sure but I don't think it actually modifies the terrain until you've passed over it. So you shouldn't be feeling any effect until the next lap around.
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Re: Ground Friction and Resistance Index

Postby AWood » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:25 am

i may be in the minority here but i think its fine how it is. even if t is "too sticky" to be realistic. it rides fine. and you can still slide out.
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Re: Ground Friction and Resistance Index

Postby Jay » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:04 am

Any side you are on is considered the minority
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