Open discussion: Pay what you want system

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checkerz
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby checkerz » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:19 pm

ShortyMX wrote:Well how am I supposed to set a standard price? Lol


There is no "standard" price...

In my real world, Johnny Bumpsticks down the street sells "suspension revalves" for $200. I sell "suspension revalves" all day for $1000-1500.

To put it back into MXS terms... If I were to make a model, I wouldn't get a single person to buy it for $10 because it would suck, but JRE could get $100 without even trying from multiple people.

You are right about one thing. The system is broken. Well actually, the broken part is there isn't really a system. There is no legit "business" or "ethics" and you're dealing with a ton of kids. Without a structure or government it is the wild west and that is no good for anyone.

The problem isn't the prices or the creators. It is the lack of a system to control files or manage transactions.

Solve those problems if you really want to fix it. Until then, selling or buying will be just as risky as buying crack or selling a BJ on the street.

m121c
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby m121c » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:17 am

checkerz wrote:buying crack or selling a BJ on the street.


Hey now, you leave Matt and Peter out of this!

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ShortyMX
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby ShortyMX » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:46 pm

checkerz wrote:
ShortyMX wrote:Well how am I supposed to set a standard price? Lol


There is no "standard" price...

In my real world, Johnny Bumpsticks down the street sells "suspension revalves" for $200. I sell "suspension revalves" all day for $1000-1500.


That was my point. Even if I set a standard price there was no law for people to use that standard price.

1000$ for just sending it in or for a whole day with testing?


checkerz wrote:To put it back into MXS terms... If I were to make a model, I wouldn't get a single person to buy it for $10 because it would suck, but JRE could get $100 without even trying from multiple people.


That's not a fact, that is your opinion. This discussion could be ended very simply if either someone of gear skinners like silver skate showed how much $$$ he makes on a set of gear or if a modeler tried this system.

I think a lot of people use ripped models because they don't want to spend 100$. It's not like they wouldn't buy bikes at all, they're just way too expensive. I believe Adobe would make more money too if they had more reasonable prices, because then I'd buy CC as well and trash CS2 :lol: But there we are back at the numbers, only they can tell that.

There will always be ripping, no matter what. Look at Triple AAA video games, they invest millions into the the software just to avoid cracking and then have everything cracked on the release day...
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MOTO NATIOM112
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby MOTO NATIOM112 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:32 pm

I know this is a stretch but what if there was a secure website that creators could upload/sell their content and have a well built system to prevent file sharing? Say Cohenour uploads his Honda for $100. Mr.Moneybags buys his Honda and Jeremy would log into the website, creates a code and sends it to Moneybags where he would then put the code into the website which would "unlock" the downloadable content. After the code is used once, it would no longer be active and you wouldn't be able to use the code again.

I know that doesn't stop people from reuploading it. Modelers would have to put something on the model to tell shared files from authentic files (such as a VIN on a bike. You could just lock the layer or merge it so people can't edit it) and IF someone were to edit it, creators would have to keep a list of "active vins" to see what model is legit and which one is tampered/illegal.

This probably won't happen due to how much time would have to be put into a website. But hey, worth a shot!
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby jonracer594 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:03 pm

MOTO NATIOM112 wrote:I know this is a stretch but what if there was a secure website that creators could upload/sell their content and have a well built system to prevent file sharing? Say Cohenour uploads his Honda for $100. Mr.Moneybags buys his Honda and Jeremy would log into the website, creates a code and sends it to Moneybags where he would then put the code into the website which would "unlock" the downloadable content. After the code is used once, it would no longer be active and you wouldn't be able to use the code again.

I know that doesn't stop people from reuploading it. Modelers would have to put something on the model to tell shared files from authentic files (such as a VIN on a bike. You could just lock the layer or merge it so people can't edit it) and IF someone were to edit it, creators would have to keep a list of "active vins" to see what model is legit and which one is tampered/illegal.

This probably won't happen due to how much time would have to be put into a website. But hey, worth a shot!

I didnt understand half of what you said because this is so complicated that I would rather stick to Shorty's idea. But as the reviews show creators are more into make money than making the community happy and try using a new system.
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby MOTOZ293 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:07 pm

That’s not a terrible ideas Morin! Only problem is that we have to find someone to do all that coding and stuff.. and I’m willing to bet no one will do it for free or cheap enough to make it worth it. Jlv or wheels my know how to setup a website like that but they are already busy people
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ShortyMX
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby ShortyMX » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:20 pm

It is a great idea and I thought about a few months ago, but I believe it has no future due to copyright problems. You could make a platform but then everything has to be unbranded and probably change certain aspects of the model so that you can't be sued by the OEM (Not only for MX Sim but also other games like Assetto Corsa or Garrys Mod). Kinda lika MvA Reflex where they switched the front fenders on the Hiroshisaki and Fukushimi or whatever the bikes were called. Not willing to put up with so many prosecutions :D
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby MOTOZ293 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:13 pm

Why would we have to? It could just be a tap on the forums, so instead of forum.mxsimulator.com I could be marketplace.mxsimulator.com
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby MOTOZ293 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:33 pm

Dp, but I would be set up like the forums in the sense that there would be different parts: graphics, gear, models. And inside of each tab would be have each sellers name rates by reviews, most recent, A-Z. Then once you select a content creator you can see all of your past work, works they may have for sale, or request a “product” where you would message the person and workout your “product” details. I mean this sounds feasible but I would take work from jlv and a supportive community
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checkerz
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby checkerz » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:53 pm

And what happens when someone sells ripped content?

And what happens when someone else re-uploads and shares the link?

And what happens when someone isn't happy with the quality of work they bought?

And what happens when someone pays but doesn't get what they requested?

And what happens when someone refunds their payment?

And what happens when someone works out and "exclusive" deal and then other people are sold the same thing?

And what happens when Joey Doucherknucklepopper is selling his gear with my boots and Dingle Poppercherry's gloves?

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ShortyMX
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby ShortyMX » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:35 pm

checkerz wrote:And what happens when someone sells ripped content?

And what happens when someone else re-uploads and shares the link?

And what happens when someone isn't happy with the quality of work they bought?

And what happens when someone pays but doesn't get what they requested?

And what happens when someone refunds their payment?

And what happens when someone works out and "exclusive" deal and then other people are sold the same thing?

And what happens when Joey Doucherknucklepopper is selling his gear with my boots and Dingle Poppercherry's gloves?


1. ban
2. ban
3. write negative review
4. file has to be preuploaded i'd say. If the preuploaded file isn't the promised model/gear/... maybe a warning, after that ban
5. just don't make it possible. You can't refund now too
6. exclusive deals wouldn't be possible over that platform
7. You tell them that they have beautiful names. Then their gear gets taken down and they get a warning plus the chance to reupload without others work

Maybe have someone who knows about all the models in MX Sim be an admin and look over the preuploaded file before it's public. That would erase half of your provocative questions :) if you're going into this discussion trying to show that ripping won't stop, ding ding we have a winner. There'll always be that Joey Doucherknucklepopper that reuploads. But we can try to keep Dingle Poppercherry from doing it as well because it's so easy.

Even if it was on marketplace.mxsim.com, i think copyright would still be an issue.
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby broland278 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:47 pm

Copyright would always be an issue trying to sell a "replicated" model under a manufacture name, there is really no way around unless you write up a proposal to get approval. good luck lol I like your concept I just dont see it working with how the community has become
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby MOTOZ293 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:31 pm

Im going to answer these one by one in my opinion on what should be done to help/prevent

checkerz wrote:what happens when someone sells ripped content?

Easy, Since in my idea it would be off mxs website, JLV could be able to see the interactions between the customer and "merchant" and would take the necessary action
checkerz wrote:what happens when someone else re-uploads and shares the link?

I think that would be handled almost the same way, except the "merchant" would message JLV and say something along the lines of "Hey so and so bought this off of me and I'm almost positive they reuploaded my work and gave to this other person. JLV would then look into the problem and take actions he deems necessary
checkerz wrote:what happens when someone isn't happy with the quality of work they bought?

I might sound naive here, but the customer would be able to see past works from said "merchant" and if they dont like it they can leave a bad yelp review. I'll try and separate it into each category (models,Gear, Graphics)
Models: The customer could see past works but either looking on the merchant's page or look through there forum posts like some people do now since a lot of modelers post in Upcoming Models #2
Gear: Most gear creators make scrammed public safs of what they are selling to give a chance for people so see the quality of their work. I dont think much would change in the gear department
Graphics: Heres where I think it gets more tricky. merchants can have their page setup somewhat like graphics company's do in real life. They could have Semi-Custom kits for $x and the customer can only change logos and colors, and then there could be a Full custom where they are able to message the designer through the whole process until the customer is happy (which is how i do kits in this game for people now)
checkerz wrote:what happens when someone pays but doesn't get what they requested?

I think that could happen even if my idea doesnt exist, and probably already does happen. I think the payment thing for a full custom kit could be worked out with the merchant and customer. As for gear and models, i dont think there is that much of that going on. You know what the person has and doesnt have so they more than likely would be on the customer for the mistake. If it isnt on the customer the merchant should be the bigger person and bring out their best inner customer service person so they get a good review and higher rating
checkerz wrote:what happens when someone works out and "exclusive" deal and then other people are sold the same thing?

I say we have some rules to the exclusive thing. John has exclusive right to JREs honda, so he has control of how much he wants to sell it for if i understood how talking to you two about it. So say if I wanted Josh aka T-Rider to make me a 2018 kawasaki but I want exclusive rights for an SX season we negotiate and I pay him $x. I think the pricing on having exclusive models should be negotiated between the two parties involved. Now for Exclusive gear rights. There is two ways in my head that this can happen. You have people like Silverskate who just absolutley grind out gear and have everything done super fast for that gear companys year collection, and you have people like Thoo't who dont really do that much gear, and dont really advertise on the things he makes. So if youre dealing with someone like Silverskate who may have all or most of the gear already done you can talk to the merchant and see if there is a way to get exclusive on something he already has done, and if the merchant doesnt have done, you can have him make it and pay I'd say no more than $40 since anything over that for gear is ridiculous. Now onto the person like Thoo't. He may not have that gear he has this set price $x for all of the 2018 x gear and since hes making it for you, you talk about getting rights, and if you dont want exclusive for a season tell him so he has in text that he can sell it to other people (to tromp any arguments about verbal agreements)
Now onto graphics, id say you'd have to purchase a full custom kit, and you would have to tell the designer that you would like eclusive rights for x amount of time. (that way there is text proof)
checkerz wrote:what happens when Joey Doucherknucklepopper is selling his gear with my boots and Dingle Poppercherry's gloves?

We could have it in the "Marketplace rules" where you cant sell your work with others without credit. Perfect example is Jre Tech-10s vs. T Crain Tech-10s. The two are very easy to spot the differences. So say if someone sells gear with T-crain's boots its no big deal since they are publicly relased and they are saving the trouble of soneone who may not know what theyre doing. Now if someone sold gear with Jre's Tech-10s there would be consequences since it is a private model to those who paid of it and that is just sharring models and would have just get banned for sharring private models.


I dont think this would work and it may not even be possible since this community is full of lawless children, but i think it is worth trying an may widdle out some file sharring due to it being on JLVs website and he can have record of almost everything. FYI I think its nice to have civilized discussions like this for once on here
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checkerz
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby checkerz » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:43 pm

Without quoting everything in the posts above, I will summarize.

Why would JLV (or a respected/knowledgeable member of the community) donate the unreal amount of time to babysit this? What may seem only like a few minutes, I can promise you is much more time consuming, especially when "investigating" a complaint.

If ripping isn't going to stop, then I think the system is broken before it starts. That is the point I'm trying to make clear.

Refunds are a click of a button on paypal. You can't take the model/skin back once they have it.

There is no quality control.

While you may put "bans" or "warnings" in place, how many times has Joey's gear with Dingleberry's gloves and boots been sold? You can ban the person who posted it, but you can't get the money back from them or the gear back from those who bought it.

The better investment would be to say, "JLV, we want to sell gear/bikes/etc. We will give you 5% of every sale to fund the coding work involved to link purchases/downloads to a user and build a market place or we'll source someone to build the marketplace to support it and pay them a percentage as well." This would actually prevent ripping, allow you to track files properly, etc. However, no one will touch this with another man's privates because of legalities.

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MOTOZ293
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Re: Open discussion: Pay what you want system

Postby MOTOZ293 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:54 pm

checkerz wrote:Without quoting everything in the posts above, I will summarize.

Why would JLV (or a respected/knowledgeable member of the community) donate the unreal amount of time to babysit this? What may seem only like a few minutes, I can promise you is much more time consuming, especially when "investigating" a complaint.

If ripping isn't going to stop, then I think the system is broken before it starts. That is the point I'm trying to make clear.

Refunds are a click of a button on paypal. You can't take the model/skin back once they have it.

There is no quality control.

While you may put "bans" or "warnings" in place, how many times has Joey's gear with Dingleberry's gloves and boots been sold? You can ban the person who posted it, but you can't get the money back from them or the gear back from those who bought it.

The better investment would be to say, "JLV, we want to sell gear/bikes/etc. We will give you 5% of every sale to fund the coding work involved to link purchases/downloads to a user and build a market place or we'll source someone to build the marketplace to support it and pay them a percentage as well." This would actually prevent ripping, allow you to track files properly, etc. However, no one will touch this with another man's privates because of legalities.

That sounds amazing in a perfect world.. :(
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