Front Wheel: Programmed to Fail?

[JETZcorp]

As I've been riding, I've been noticing something extremely annoying about the front wheel when it slides out. Instead of simply washing out and doing all that, it SNAPS in about a quarter-second all the way to one side, that is, the side you're leaning "into." I'm seriously questioning if this is really what happens? I can see it being the case some of the time, but I feel that this tendency is causing crashes when none would otherwise happen. For example, let's say you're going sideways around a corner, flat-track style. The ass-end is hanging out and throwing dirt and you've got the wheel turned the opposite way as you slide. Then, suddenly, the wheel goes from this comfortable, controlled position to all the way "inside" your turn. Suddenly, it's perpendicular to your direction of travel, and the bike washes out. What in the hell could possibly cause this to happen to a front wheel that's perfectly lined up? Sure, the rest of the bike is leaning heavily, but would that FORCE the front-wheel to snap all the way to the other direction? On the slipperier, flatter tracks, this seriously limits ones ability to confidently take the corners. Further, it seems to flatly contradict the entire sport of flat-track racing they had in the '70s, where big Harley and BSA twins would go 'round a dirt track, laid down and sideways, with that front wheel pointed "left to go right." Same goes for Speedway racing.

I think what's happening is that the game is going, "Ah, I see that #75 has reached 58.4 degrees of bank, which is the magical washout point for this section of track." Smack go the handlebars. I could be wrong, but this definitely seems to fit my observations.

[jlv]

It's the auto stabilizer trying to keep you upright. As the wheel slips, you start to fall in the direction you're leaning. The stabilizer senses this and tries to steer into it to keep the bike from falling, but since there isn't enough traction it can't save you.

[DannyBoy]

ok since this topic is open i'd like to ask how come when you land on your front tire it snaps to some random side and makes you fall? like i've landed on my front tire before and landed it.. it just seems a little too sensative?
also sometimes when you are on your front tire for too long it tends to snap to the side aswell

[JETZcorp]

Well, I don't like it. I've only ever seen it do two things. It either makes the bike slide over when I don't want it to, or makes it high-side. Is this feature controlled in the Stability sub-menu?

[jlv]

No, it does more than that. It makes it possible to balance the bike. To disable it entirely, press * with stability selected and then turn 'leveling' and 'roll damping' down to 0. If you're really quick, you might be able to keep it upright for a couple of seconds with those settings.

[JETZcorp]

I see what you mean. Would it be possible to make it work in such a way that it keeps the bike stable when it needs it, but doesn't interfere with riding sideways? Or perhaps make it less extreme under certain conditions. I can definitely see now why it would be extremely useful, but I still feel that having it slam the bars all the way over in less than a second is a bit much. I don't know if it's possible to do this without a serious rehaul of the physics, but it's probably something to ponder over, at least.

[norcal_105]

I was riding a supermoto track yesterday and it had way more traction and bite then the dirt... i was thinking if there was any way to mix the 2 that would be a great balance..

[Phathry25]

Further, it seems to flatly contradict the entire sport of flat-track racing they had in the '70s, where big Harley and BSA twins would go 'round a dirt track, laid down and sideways, with that front wheel pointed "left to go right."

It still exists. I'm offended that you implied it didn't exist anymore. They also turn left, so you point it right to go left, but that's how you turn normally anyways. There's a video of Canard riding a lap at the Honda track that illustrates this clearly. Its a helmet cam, and he scrubs the triples, you can see the grooved line up the faces, he leans to the right, but the tire tracks up the face go to the left.

From what I read of what JLV said, when the auto stabilizer kicks in you were already going to crash anyways, it just seances that and figures the best thing to do is turn the wheel the other way to correct the slide, but in the end you already don't have enough grip as it is and you just end up falling. That's how I read it. IRL the only time I've dropped the front end after I was back on the gas is when I was hit, or when the suspension unloaded just as I was getting back into it and the bike squared up for a split second and took all the weight off the front end. Other than that I can't ever recall someone strait losing the front end when they were on the gas in a slide, not to say it's not possible, but there are a lot of things you do in real life that you'll never be able to do in a game, like body positioning. Next time I get out and ride I'll try to only move strait forwards and backwards on the seat while staying immobile left to right on the bike, I'll let you know the results...LOL

[JETZcorp]

It still exists. I'm offended that you implied it didn't exist anymore.

Sorry, I just knew about it from the epic movie, "On Any Sunday" which featured the flat-track exploits of Mert Lawill, Gene Romaro, Dick Mann, etc. There was also a few brief clips of Kenny Roberts going 'round a flat-track in On Any Sunday II, but I haven't heard anything of it outside of that. There was a track here in Portland called Sidewinders back in the day, from which the bellowing of the big twins would echo and blast from the mountain across the city. This was long before my time, and the track was taken down and buildings erected in its place before I was born. I guess I assumed the sport died out as people started getting more and more pissy about noise and emissions and such. I suppose I was wrong.

[BenDexter]

I think the bike needs more side wall grip...

at the moment if there is no bank to turn on it's extremely difficult to brake,turn and then gas to get out of the turn without crashing.

A good track with rut's and berm's then the bike feel's awesome,but when you have to turn on a flat track it get's really annoying.

There is also something really weird about how the bike feel's on a slope...I can't put my finger on it however.

[DJ99X]

I'll quote it again

There are changes I plan on making that will affect cornering. The current traction is done with Coulumb friction. That is close to correct for dry sliding surfaces like concrete, pavement or hardpacked dirt. When the tires actually dig into the dirt there is a viscous drag effect that isn't modeled with the current traction system. In future versions it will be possible to give a different coefficient of friction for each slip rate. That will allow for much closer modeling of softer soils. That should help prevent the unexpected washouts because it will slip some before it gives out entirely.

[JETZcorp]

Now there's a quote that should be at the top of every page!

[jlv]

You're still going to have to slow down for flat corners. It will just give you a little more warning before it lets go completely. (At least I hope it will.)