Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

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Smidly
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Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby Smidly » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:05 am

For a while now I've been trying to figure out how to actually model dirtbike stuff instead of memes. I keep trying to find hard surface modeling tutorials and things like it but I can't figure out where to even begin with it. So I was wondering if anybody had any useful videos or articles that may help me in this. I know I'm being kind of vague in saying what I need help with but that's only because I don't even know where to begin. I've learned basic modeling techniques but haven't done anything as complex as a whole motorcycle. Anyway, if you have anything to help me please send it over, thanks.

Heres an example of something I've been working on for about a week that I had just been redoing over and over because I wasn't satisfied.
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aeffertz
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby aeffertz » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:06 pm

What does the poly flow look like on that? The best way is to just keep practicing really. When I first started, I ended up doing a lot of stuff over and over. Just takes one time getting used to how the poly flow should work.
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby p2sta » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:29 pm

If you are not really sure how to do whole bike i would start with track models to practice your modeling techniques.
You will most likely not find any specific tutorials for bike modeling.

If you are ready for a bike tho.

There are few things you need to have on your mind. There are some things that are set in the game and can't be changed so best thing is to start with jlvs base blend where you can see those points (wheel base, rider interaction points (bars, footpegs) tripleclamp swingarm pivots, etc)

You need to build your model to match them otherwise you will have hard time making it work in the game.
For the actual modeling process if you have basic knowleadge of polymodeling go with that.

I personally start with a frame, add swingarm, forks, bars (make sure you match the pivot points), Next i do plastics and seat.
When you have that you have solid base already...add engine, pipe, shock,etc.
Small parts like levers, barpads calipers, etc can be taken from some other models if you want to speed up the process (make sure you have permission from the creator tho).

Keep in mind you are making lowpoly model for quite old game engine, so keep stuff simple.
(When i see some of the newer mxs models its pretty visible the creators don't really follow that and people then wonder why they cant run mxs on a $5K gaming rig smooth.)

Next would be to unwrap the whole thing and start with highpoly version to make normal maps bakes.
I used to do it the other way around, but i think lowpoly and then highpoly is much more effective way because when you find any problems while doing the highpoly you just need to edit lowpoly model which is a lot easier than editing highpoly.

When you are done (if you don't want to do best mxs model ever you will be fine with doing bakes for most visible parts like plastics and stuff you can see in First person).
For the rest you should be fine without bakes, with just normal map details made in photoshop).
One important note: make sure you set up the baking process to fit mxs version of normal maps (inverted channels compared to photoshop and 3ds max). It can be always change later if you don't.

When its all done, you will need to put details in the normal map, make a template and export the bike to jms.
Its also good to test stuff in the game during the process so you can see how it looks there because it may be lot different from what you see in 3ds/blender


As aeffertz said you will probably remake lots of stuff during the process as you learn new and new stuff while working on the bike. You will figure out some parts are not right when you try to fit other stuff on the bike etc. but its just about working and working and working your way to being good.

Hope this helps anyone trying to make any mxs models.

I would love to get back and make something again in the future, but right now there is no time or motivation.

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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby Smidly » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:23 am

aeffertz wrote:What does the poly flow look like on that? The best way is to just keep practicing really. When I first started, I ended up doing a lot of stuff over and over. Just takes one time getting used to how the poly flow should work.


p2sta wrote:If you are not really sure how to do whole bike i would start with track models to practice your modeling techniques.
You will most likely not find any specific tutorials for bike modeling.

If you are ready for a bike tho.

There are few things you need to have on your mind. There are some things that are set in the game and can't be changed so best thing is to start with jlvs base blend where you can see those points (wheel base, rider interaction points (bars, footpegs) tripleclamp swingarm pivots, etc)

You need to build your model to match them otherwise you will have hard time making it work in the game.
For the actual modeling process if you have basic knowleadge of polymodeling go with that.

I personally start with a frame, add swingarm, forks, bars (make sure you match the pivot points), Next i do plastics and seat.
When you have that you have solid base already...add engine, pipe, shock,etc.
Small parts like levers, barpads calipers, etc can be taken from some other models if you want to speed up the process (make sure you have permission from the creator tho).

Keep in mind you are making lowpoly model for quite old game engine, so keep stuff simple.
(When i see some of the newer mxs models its pretty visible the creators don't really follow that and people then wonder why they cant run mxs on a $5K gaming rig smooth.)

Next would be to unwrap the whole thing and start with highpoly version to make normal maps bakes.
I used to do it the other way around, but i think lowpoly and then highpoly is much more effective way because when you find any problems while doing the highpoly you just need to edit lowpoly model which is a lot easier than editing highpoly.

When you are done (if you don't want to do best mxs model ever you will be fine with doing bakes for most visible parts like plastics and stuff you can see in First person).
For the rest you should be fine without bakes, with just normal map details made in photoshop).
One important note: make sure you set up the baking process to fit mxs version of normal maps (inverted channels compared to photoshop and 3ds max). It can be always change later if you don't.

When its all done, you will need to put details in the normal map, make a template and export the bike to jms.
Its also good to test stuff in the game during the process so you can see how it looks there because it may be lot different from what you see in 3ds/blender


As aeffertz said you will probably remake lots of stuff during the process as you learn new and new stuff while working on the bike. You will figure out some parts are not right when you try to fit other stuff on the bike etc. but its just about working and working and working your way to being good.

Hope this helps anyone trying to make any mxs models.

I would love to get back and make something again in the future, but right now there is no time or motivation.

Thanks for all the help guys! I knew that most of it comes with experience, but I didn't know about poly flow or anything like that. My stuff always ended up being messy and hard to make fine adjustments to. Really nice to get input from two of the best creators for this game. Thanks again!
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby p2sta » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:27 am

Also one good suggestion, get as many reference pictures as you can get, its never easy to figure out shapes form 1-2 photos

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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby aeffertz » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:46 am

Yeah, P2sta gave great advice! I also do thee low poly first and toggle the subdivide modifier to check out the high poly version as it comes along. It will quickly tell you where you got some bad poly flow, youll end up with weird kinks or pinches. That's my biggest struggle right now is figuring out the poly flow and getting a clean wireframe.

One thing you may not know, you want to avoid having any triangles in your poly flow. It's best to keep the whole wireframe as quads, but sometimes it is inevitable or not detrimental to the wireframe.
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby p2sta » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:52 am

Actually for game (lowpoly) you are fine with triangles i believe (the model get triangeled at the export anyway), but the subdivision may cause issues with tris/ngons thats for sure

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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby vortexracingleader » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:03 pm

viewtopic.php?t=45272 i made one of these awhile ago
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby Smidly » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:56 am

vortexracingleader wrote:http://forum.mxsimulator.com/viewtopic.php?t=45272 i made one of these awhile ago

Yes, I saw this and read through it a while ago. It helped a lot to guide me in terms of the steps to make a complete game asset but not really making the mesh itself.
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby p2sta » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:54 am

its hard to learn that from tutorials, usually thats something you gain during time modeling. Good thing is to keep things simple as long as you can, keep polygons follow the shapes of the model and keep polycount low. The more you have the harder to control smoothness of the surface. But best is to look at some good models and just practice. I can share some lowpoly bike mesh pictures if anybodys interested. May help to see what im trying to say.

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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby Smidly » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:30 am

p2sta wrote:its hard to learn that from tutorials, usually thats something you gain during time modeling. Good thing is to keep things simple as long as you can, keep polygons follow the shapes of the model and keep polycount low. The more you have the harder to control smoothness of the surface. But best is to look at some good models and just practice. I can share some lowpoly bike mesh pictures if anybodys interested. May help to see what im trying to say.

Yeah, I'm starting to practice on smaller track objects as you said. I think I'm starting to improve. You could send me those mesh pictures just so I could see how that works.
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby p2sta » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:51 pm

Just a couple of stuff.
1. image - 2010 rmz front fender made my me in 2012. Not really that accurate but it was my first bike, so i was in similar situation to you, not really knowing much about modelling and game models....you can see the poylflow is not the worst, but there is also a lot of issues . On first glance you can see its not looking pleasant.
Image

2. image - same fender just remade 2019, much more accurate as i got better skills and better reference images. You can also see the polyflow is way more even and gives you overall better impression. I use this as a base for highpoly model which requests few support edges and thats pretty much it. I For mxs you would be able to even reduce the polycount down a bit, but for highpoly you dont have to care about performance.
Image


3. image - 2019 ktm plastics....highpoly model (before cutting holes) with subd modifier turned off.
You can see there is not really much going on expect the numberplate where i struggled with the shapes so i had to add few extra edgeloops to support the concave to concave area. You can see especially on upper part of the "arrow" (front of the shroud) how you need to support the shape of the plastic with your edges, from side view you would probably do the polyflow differently but when you shape it in 3d you find out there is bend in that area which you need to form too otherwise you will never get it right.
For lowpoly you could save quite a bit from what i have here because you don't need support edges for subdiv.

Image

hope this helps. As i said, keep it simple as long as you can and try to do the polygons even, that will give you cleaner look and saves lot of time trying to fix something that you create with getting too highpoly

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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby Smidly » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:37 am

p2sta wrote:Just a couple of stuff.
1. image - 2010 rmz front fender made my me in 2012. Not really that accurate but it was my first bike, so i was in similar situation to you, not really knowing much about modelling and game models....you can see the poylflow is not the worst, but there is also a lot of issues . On first glance you can see its not looking pleasant.
Image

2. image - same fender just remade 2019, much more accurate as i got better skills and better reference images. You can also see the polyflow is way more even and gives you overall better impression. I use this as a base for highpoly model which requests few support edges and thats pretty much it. I For mxs you would be able to even reduce the polycount down a bit, but for highpoly you dont have to care about performance.
Image


3. image - 2019 ktm plastics....highpoly model (before cutting holes) with subd modifier turned off.
You can see there is not really much going on expect the numberplate where i struggled with the shapes so i had to add few extra edgeloops to support the concave to concave area. You can see especially on upper part of the "arrow" (front of the shroud) how you need to support the shape of the plastic with your edges, from side view you would probably do the polyflow differently but when you shape it in 3d you find out there is bend in that area which you need to form too otherwise you will never get it right.
For lowpoly you could save quite a bit from what i have here because you don't need support edges for subdiv.

Image

hope this helps. As i said, keep it simple as long as you can and try to do the polygons even, that will give you cleaner look and saves lot of time trying to fix something that you create with getting too highpoly
Yea, thanks for these. It does help me to understand polyflow more.
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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby hvpmvp » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:58 pm

What would the differences be in the modeling process of a sim model and a model for renders only?
I make renders for free

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Re: Hard Surface Modeling Help or sumn

Postby p2sta » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:13 pm

for mxs you are creating model for realtime rendering process, so it should be lowpoly, everything needs to be unwraped and be textured (normal, skin, spec (AO, etc). Plus LOD models would be good.


For rendering you don't have to worry about poly count because you don't need to render the model in real time, and you are able to use different materials for parts, so you don't necessarily worry about unwraping parts that don't need specific texture. You are also able to use subd modifiers to get smoother result, it shoots the polycount to the sky but again for rendering you don't worry about that so much if you don't worry about rendertimes.

My highpoly models are about 20 mil each without subD. And mxs models should be around 10k polys i think to make the game run good on regular computers.


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