Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

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Servatis
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Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Servatis »

First I would like to state that I love this game. I spent a good bunch of hours in the past 1,5 year trying to get better.
And I have gotten better, to the point that I actually have enough control over the bike that I can battle with someone. Riding predictable lines and not colliding.

The latter part is the most fun I ever had in a game, going bar to bar with other riders of my own level that know how to battle and have fun.
But, that is where the biggest problem lies, these riders that know how to control the bike and how to stay out of collisions only account for about 10-20% of all riders that are online.
4 out of 5 times you are going to come across someone that rides all over the place and either tries in a very bold move to pass, resulting in a huge crash 99% of the time, or in his "panic" to keep his spot, starts waving all over the pace to block any approach.
The latter can be argued about where the border lies between trying to protect your lines and just being plain out of control.
My point is that at this point I treat everyone like the "goons" these days unless i personally know the rider to be good and knows what he's doing. this does not help my online experience at all, it forces me to be always worrying about everyone else on the track while i should be focusing on my riding.
I realize that this is a problem that can't be solved easily, maybe it can't be solved at all. MXS is a hard game, VERY hard, especially online.
It does not matter that you can ride faster than some people, it still doesn't make you a good and fair rider online.

These people are also the people that don't pay attention to the track when they make a mistake. They get off track, slow down considerably, and then just barge back onto the track without thinking about other riders that might be riding there.
I can't count the amount of times I have been hit by bikes and riders flying crisscross over the track because someone hit someone and that someone hit someone else who then in turn hits me.
then when everyone gets back up, everyone just turns the throttle open 110% and it's chaos all over again.

I realize that in the heat of the race there is a lot going on, everyone wants to do as good as he possibly can, but there are no restrictions.
When you crash you get back up in 10 seconds, real life it depends on how severe the crash was.
fell over a berm, MXS: 10 seconds, IRL: longer than that.
cased a triple, MXS: 10 seconds IRL: if your lucky just a real big slam to your body, if your unlucky MUCH MUCH worse.
smacked into the side of a stadium at full speed, MXS: 10 seconds, IRL: a bunch of broken bones.
rammed into 2 other riders in a 180 turn, MXS: 3x10 seconds, IRL: probably disqualification and a good chance of a large injury.
WFO at the start, no brakes, MXS: 75% of all riders 10 seconds, IRL: Red flag, and a whole bunch of carnage.
The punishment for a slight tap can be just as bad as riding like a lunatic WFO around the track.

There is no such thing as peripheral vision in MXS, you are not as aware of your surroundings in MXS as you would be IRL.
So keep that in mind when you have your throttle open at the start. or when you are riding behind someone.

The ease at which a rider can make a mistake in MXS is also much higher than IRL. this is mostly because there is no real penalty for riding faster than you really are able to.
people just go as fast as they can and that makes them crash.
I myself find it hard to ride a full race without crashing, it's normal to crash once a race, maybe even twice. I have races where i crash every lap. and I'm sure this is the case for a lot of other MXS players out there.
when you come up to a triple you don't think "Can I really make this jump?" no, you just try and it works out 50% of the time, in MXS 50% isn't a bad deal.
In real life.. 50% over a triple, I think you would have to come up with a million dollars to find and idiot that will try.
yes this applies to single player as much as it does in multiplayer. the only difference is that you can take someone else with you in the process when online.

In a crowded race (15 or more people) 90% of my crashes are due to other players, sometimes it's their fault and sometimes they just crash in an unfortunate place.
The other 10% it's me that makes a mistake and 90% of those times other riders crash into me.
The one and only way you can avoid most of this carnage is if you get a top 3 start. a bad start and you can just log off since there is no point in trying.

as an example, I can ride 54, 55 second lap times on 2011 phoenix quite consistently. In the heat race of the euro sx series. I got 1 lap time of 55, the rest was above 1 minute.
A race that I take extra care, where I try my very best to ride good and consistent to get into the main and still I crash every lap except for 1 lap.

I know these problems are difficult to remedy from a programming point of view.
It is near impossible for the game to identify certain situations and then assign penalties to the ones responsible.
I also know it is near impossible to create a game that is both realistic and easy to control.

There are a bunch of things that the game has problems with that relate to the things I mentioned, like the fact that crashing into someone gives the same penalty as accidentally bumping into someone that's on the ground.
Some of those things just aren't fair, but again hard to fix from a programming point.


So I would like to put a request out there to everyone that sees the same problems as I do(and that took the time to read this entire thing :P):
Try and tame your enthusiasm to a point where you are able to ride clean and consistent laps.
Don't make rash decisions on passes that you know will most likely result in a crash for the both of you.
Keep a line, don't go jumping triples from left to right, especially right after the start.
Don't try to make that difficult jump with a bunch of riders around you, it's not worth it.
If you cannot do these things then you should consider practicing some more, since obviously you don't have the necessary control of the bike where you can ride close to someone without hitting the other rider.

For now I will be taking a brake from competitive online racing, it only serves to frustrate and enrage me. I consider myself a reasonable and calm guy but in races like that I have a hard time riding the full 6 laps (Which I find a damn shame).

All i hope is that some people read this post and start thinking to themselves that maybe the game would be much more enjoyable if we all tried a little less to hit and crash our way into a position.
Consistency wins races!

Let the flaming commence
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stocksy129
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by stocksy129 »

very well said <3
ShackAttack12
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by ShackAttack12 »

No need to flame you, I feel the exact same way pretty much. It's not going to stop me from racing these events, but it sure has taken some of the experience away.

Lets compare MXS online to other online racing simulation games. 1 huge difference is the amount of people in the community.

Live For Speed, GTR2, Rfactor, etc: Car racing simulation games. Thousands of people play these game. There are all kinds of servers, from joke around cruise servers (where any skill level can go to have fun) to intense series racing servers (for amateurs and pros). In intense legit racing servers, people who can't hold their lines, drive closely with others, etc are intolerable and are banned from racing in those servers. Also, many legit racing servers have scripts that detect if people ram, and those who ram are auto kicked.

Here's the problem with MXS right now.... There are not many organized races with lots of hype, and not nearly as large of a community as the above racing sims, which means the odds of elite players getting mixed with noobs is much greater. The MXS supercross series is "supposed to be"(unofficially, JLV doesn't want it labeled that way) an organized series for MXS's elite riders, equivalent to AMA pros in real life. However, JLV does not want to limit racing only to MXS's elite because (1) consistently, there's not enough "elites" available on Thursday nights at 9:00pm EST to fill up the server, and (2) it's not good for business to deny any member of this small community access to the racing (you've all seen people rage on the forums when they can't get in the server). Now, he's tried to do a bit of fair limitation to the riders that can race by doing qualifying based on lap times, and that's a great addition. However, riding with others is an entirely different animal than riding by yourself. You need complete self control and track awareness in MXS to be able to handle riding closely with other people, and you somewhat need to trust those riders around you to have the same attributes.

I know this is a bold statement, but.....People who ram, crash constantly, and can't ride consistently by themselves and with others should be restricted from racing premier events like the supercross series. The only thing i could ask for is that racing is CLEAN AND FAIR, and that's why i do everything i can to help out during these events.

Here's a suggestion that might make the racing better.
Just like in real life, why can't there be further qualifying before the heats? Hell, we could even do the qualifying runs Wednesday night.
Take the top 60 lap times up until qualifying begins.
Run 8 randomly seeded 15-man qualifying sessions. That way, every rider will get 2 sessions to post a qual time.
Top 40 lap times from those sessions will make the night show Thursday night.
I think it would make Thursday night racing better because people are qualifying in an allotted time and consistent riders will qualify well.
ShackAttack12
| 2010 Supercross Champ | 2011 Supercross Champ | 2019 Supercross Champ |
Phathry25
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Phathry25 »

I would love to try an elite level invite only race/series, I would even run it myself, but I just don't have the resources. (server/website) :twisted:
Sib43
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Sib43 »

As a Supercross organizer i can say... its not possible to make it good for all!

I made 2 classes for the supercross series.... in the MX2 class there was 5 riders in the end and in the MX1 was 20 riders because many just dont show up!

Well i think its more the fault of the "noobs" and you guys cry too much!

When i watch AMA SX races, the best riders have problems when they are deep in the pack! So for MXS, just look to start better as the others.

Other side... it should be possible the good riders AND noobs brake for the first turn! Crashes happen but not like i see very often in MXS...

And yea its very hard to lap ppl, but JLV made a blue flag and stuff! Its just up to the ppl! I just can say, from now on i check the races and i ban lappers for ridin down the fast guys!
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huntermx4
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by huntermx4 »

well sib i agree with most of what you said...i dont think i would ban lappers but when the number comes up on your screen and you know its the leader or anyone else pull over to the side or dont jump just roll em....that means GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!
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ddmx
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by ddmx »

Last weeks main has more than a couple, if I remember right, "elites" that didn't make it, due to the fact that they were blasted constantly in their heats and lcq. Hegge and phathry come to mind first. My thought as to why mxs doesn't work online, is because it takes a certain level of maturity to play this game, and since this game attracts primarily kids younger than 18, the maturity isn't there. We need a +20 Pro class series.
Jester#132
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Jester#132 »

What about a 20+ noob class? or would I be the only one in there? :roll:
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stocksy129
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by stocksy129 »

if you're getting frustrated go race the demo series! Not many entrys and every one seems to be raging at all the noobs online that way you only rage if you get your ass kicked.
Now go sign up!
Servatis
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Servatis »

Sib43 wrote: When i watch AMA SX races, the best riders have problems when they are deep in the pack! So for MXS, just look to start better as the others.
sure, but in AMA SX races everyone knows what he's doing.
the problems that those fast riders have is only in finding a spot to pass.
In MXS when I'm in the pack, I hardly have time to worry about passing spots. All i'm worrying about at that point is not crashing, taking everything slow and avoiding the debris flying all over the track.

All i was trying to say is that, in my opinion, something needs to change, because I'm not having fun in those races.
I'd rather race online when there is no organized race, and ride against 5-6 other riders. at that point the riders are too spread out across the track to cause big problems. And the battles become way more fun when you dont have to worry about something or someone hitting you in the face.

it was not meant to "cry", I was just giving my honest opinion.
Keeping quiet doesn't solve anything for anyone.
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Servatis
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Servatis »

sorry for double post..
stocksy129 wrote:if you're getting frustrated go race the demo series! Not many entrys and every one seems to be raging at all the noobs online that way you only rage if you get your ass kicked.
Now go sign up!
Yeah, cause riding the demo series is so much like riding online.

this isn't about whether I should or should not be online.
your argument is like this:
"I don't like driving in traffic jams to get to work.".... "Then find a new job closer to home."
It doesn't solve the problem.

I love riding online, and these problems prevent me from getting the most out of that. I do not want to spend my time constantly riding remo races just so i don't have to witness the carnage online.

I'm not the fastest rider out there, I'm pretty horrible at starts. But I know I can come through the pack. I start slow and then I work my way up (it's actually very fun if it works out). in these races that is impossible.
do you see an AMA SX race where stewart is in 20th place and at the end he is still in 20th because he keeps getting thrown off his bike when he tries to pass?
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Shadow
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Shadow »

Servatis wrote:These people are also the people that don't pay attention to the track when they make a mistake. They get off track, slow down considerably, and then just barge back onto the track without thinking about other riders that might be riding there.
I can't count the amount of times I have been hit by bikes and riders flying crisscross over the track because someone hit someone and that someone hit someone else who then in turn hits me.
then when everyone gets back up, everyone just turns the throttle open 110% and it's chaos all over again.

In a crowded race (15 or more people) 90% of my crashes are due to other players, sometimes it's their fault and sometimes they just crash in an unfortunate place.
The other 10% it's me that makes a mistake and 90% of those times other riders crash into me.
The one and only way you can avoid most of this carnage is if you get a top 3 start.
Man, this sounds so familiar. 99.9% of the starts in online, I end up dead last. If I get a good start and am the first in the corner, as soon as I brake, someone comes full speed into my rear end, and the other choice is to brake way earlier than others, and tiptoe around the first turn carnage.
Which reminds me, the slow speed leveling still doesn't work properly. At least for me, with it being tied to the slow speed damping, which I used to tune my stability settings total feel. Jlv, you should still add another leveling slider which has a speed dependent switch/slider which should also be adjustable.

I usually get top 5 finishes in races, not because I'm fast but 'cause I avoid other people. Usually if there's someone in front of me, I take an alternate line and when they make a mistake and because of that, I'm not going down with them and pass without trouble.

One of the problems is what servatis said, that there's no difference in penalty with say, losing a front end in a slow speed corner and casing a triple and landing on your head. Those small and slow speed mistakes should take shorter time to get back up and with a big crash, there should be a more severe penalty for it.
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ddmx
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by ddmx »

If I completely case a triple, and break my ankles, I'd be happy not finished a race. The pro's aren't mindless racing, neither should we.
wheels1758
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by wheels1758 »

ddmx wrote:If I completely case a triple, and break my ankles, I'd be happy not finished a race. The pro's aren't mindless racing, neither should we.
Hardest part with this is that crashes can be so "weird" sometimes. Take for example andrew shorts crash at san diego last year (broken talus bone) compared to ken roczen at phoenix (still able to ride the lcq and main). From my point of view, roczen landed way harder than shorty, but was still able to ride (hence, crashes can be weird). How does JLV put a price(penalty) on crashes thqat can differ so much. I've seen guys tip over and bend their bars(meaning they can't ride well after that) and guys that completely yard sale, get up and ride fine after that.

On the case of people riding cautious, it should be dealt with. People need to learn to take other lines and not try to triple with three riders in front of them. Learn to be patient and anticipate guyg moving when they get up. Just because a guy is down when you land a jump, doesn't mean he will stay down and allow you to pass. Slow up, take a different line, go around and continue riding. And don't tell me "guys swerve randomly whentaking off". I know this, you know this, take it into account and go around. And if someone overtakes you in a turn, give them their space. Its better to let a guy make an aggressive pass and stay up, than try to shut the door on him and take bth og you out.

And we all need to listen to mikey when he talks about map awareness. Before you start after being downed, lookat the map and see if people are coming!
Motoboss
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Re: Why MXS does not work online, IMHO.

Post by Motoboss »

From what i gather reading all the comments is it all boils down to needing more controll over the bike some how ..Maybe less front end washing out Considering theres a low percentage of people that can hold there line and stay on 2 wheels

As for the comment about map awareness ..Maybe a a a closer veiw of where your at on the track map (Zoomed in) in other words...It would definately help knowing if other people are close to you...IDK just a thought
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