New suspension updates optional?

[jlv]

i didnt lean back, that was from rider settings, which aren't even that bad. 100 40 100 45

but if thats the problem, then saying that directly instead of hinting at it would be a nice way to go about it.

Sorry. It looked like you leaned back to me. You need more rider damping. Try 75.

The pivot is above the CL of the sprockets though; the chain gets tighter when you compress the suspension. From a rough CAD model I think the distance between tangent points on top of the sprockets increases at least 3mm over the first half of the travel on a full sized bike, with 315mm of travel. The cheapest chains are rated at over 7000lbs tensile strength and they do break sometimes...

I don't see why that would matter. The only force applied when under power is along the top side of the chain. Haven't you ever noticed how the suspension compresses a little when you let the clutch out with the front brake on?

That's what I calculated: as the suspension compresses through the first half of the stroke, the top side of the chain gets at least 3mm longer, while there is thousands of pounds of tension on it. That's where the stiffening effect comes from. If you watch a dirt bike do a burnout, you'll see the rear of the bike actually goes up when the bike is stalled up - as opposed to squatting down.

This poor clown demonstrates it fairly well after about 0:30 seconds



I can't remember the statics anymore, to do a FBD of the bike and one of the swing arm. But when there is a moment at the countershaft and rear axle, I know the sum of the moments about the swing arm pivot puts some force down on the rear tire and up on the chassis.

Again, I don't know if this will prevent AWood from landing 5th tapped and falling off the back, but it might help people find the bottoming resistance/plushness balance they are having trouble with

The chain is getting pulled so it doesn't matter if the chain path gets longer. Think about the force vectors. The chain is under tension so the force vector is backwards along the chain on the countershaft sprocket and forward along the chain at the rear sprocket. Both point above the pivot so the suspension compresses.

The only reason it stands up in the video you posted is because the bike has no sag, which puts the axle significantly below the swingarm pivot. That happens in MX Sim too. If you took the chain off and pushed on the back wheel the same thing would happen.

[SOAB_465]

Thanks for humoring my curiosity.

Sorry, I'm just having trouble illustrating the principle, but I went and searched for it, and the Racetech Suspension bible kind of describes it from page 86 to 93. According to the book, it's called anti-squat.

Google books actually has this part of the book in the preview

https://books.google.ca/books?id=GWR_H3 ... ch&f=false

[Big Smooth one3]

Just wanted to bump with this gem



I call it "Saddleback" (TM)

[checkerz]

After a lot more time and a lot of playing on different tracks (mostly SX) I'm pretty confident in saying the new snapshot is better pretty much everywhere.

Smaller scale 1.0-1.15-ish scale tracks are definitely the best with it as I don't think I've had any weird crashes at the scale. The larger you go the worse it is.

Larger scale stuff (straight rhythm for example) is pretty sketchy, but this is just something track builders will want to adjust for moving forward.

The next three lines are my opinion based off what I feel as a player, although I believe it's all the same value:
The fall off threshold when off the gas is too high, you can ride out way too many ridiculous things in my opinion. Like jumping entire straights off wall jumps and landing to flat.
The fall off threshold when on the gas is probably pretty close to where it should be.
The fall off threshold when leaning back on the bike feels broken still, granted it's an easy fix to not lean back but every now and again I accidently do it to setup for next jump and it's an instacrash everytime.

[jlv]

Should it really allow different G loads depending on throttle and rider position though? It feels hackish - there's no good rationale for it.

[checkerz]

Should it really allow different G loads depending on throttle and rider position though? It feels hackish - there's no good rationale for it.

I initially didn't think they should, that's why I said I am sure they are all the same value; but the feel is definitely different based on what you're doing as far as what you can get away with. And I do believe it could easily create more problems/exploits than it may fix.

However, after more thought, shouldn't you be able to take a hit better based on body positioning and throttle position. Which is best versus worst, I don't know and I'm not about to go jump 250 feet to flat to experiment and find out either haha.

What I was getting at actually was, while those things are what I feel, overall I think the update is definitely a good direction. I have trained myself to not lean back or be on the throttle if a landing is going to be harsh most of the time, so that helps too. It can be learned. If anything, the biggest concern is being able to launch a wall over a whole straight to flat and ride out. I'd rather it be lower overall.

Last thought... should the threshold be on a curve based on forward versus vertical drop? If you have forward momentum I would think you could handle a bit more versus just straight dropping to the earth. Not sure in the physics world if this is actually the case, but seems that way from me as a rider.

[Big Smooth one3]

I would imagine the threshold is relative to the angle of impact. So yes, more forward momentum/acceleration onto a flat surface as opposed to just dropping out of the sky, should in theory, help deflect the force of impact (skipping a rock across water, e.g.). That said, more forward momentum into the face of a jump/hill would create a higher force of impact...I think...and this is just generally speaking, not taking into account the riders ability to hang on to the bike in-game, which is where landing on the gas or while holding in the clutch might come into play.

Keep in mind it has been nearly a decade since my last physics class, this is just what I surmise would be happening.

[Burkeen820]

Can we just leave it alone? Lol

[jlv]

Last thought... should the threshold be on a curve based on forward versus vertical drop? If you have forward momentum I would think you could handle a bit more versus just straight dropping to the earth. Not sure in the physics world if this is actually the case, but seems that way from me as a rider.

I could use a higher threshold if you haven't dropped from too high. Again, no good rationale for it, but it would make it harder to fall off in the small stuff. Maybe 25% more when under 5 feet?

[Bubba40]

Jlv can you please make this suspension a option just for the back shock. i'm kinda over crashing on little stuff like this

[jlv]

I'm still waiting for comments on my last post...

[checkerz]

Last thought... should the threshold be on a curve based on forward versus vertical drop? If you have forward momentum I would think you could handle a bit more versus just straight dropping to the earth. Not sure in the physics world if this is actually the case, but seems that way from me as a rider.

I could use a higher threshold if you haven't dropped from too high. Again, no good rationale for it, but it would make it harder to fall off in the small stuff. Maybe 25% more when under 5 feet?

I didn't reply because I don't have a good idea honestly. With the scaling used in the game, I don't know if 5 feet would be enough. Would an angle make more sense?

Something else I'm noticing from Root's screens...

It appears again to be the weight transfer. When landing to flat ground (or onto a flat tabletop) and clipping, the weight can't send the bike forward as much because there is resistance from the ground there. When clipping a sharper landing, the bike has nothing under the front wheel so I guess the impact isn't as severe.

Where as with real life, wouldn't this allow the front suspension to then absorb some of the impact when flat ground is landed on versus a dropping backside where you would likely get flung forward and over the bars?

I know I'm asking more questions and still not giving answers. I don't know the answers - but hoping to point out some situations to come to a solution eventually.

But in short, I think adding another variable like the 5 feet would most likely cause more inconsistency versus solve the problem.

[AWood]

i just want the old shit back i feel like nothing was wrong. and yeah i think we didnt put in input on the 5 foot thing because were not sure.

[jlv]

It appears again to be the weight transfer. When landing to flat ground (or onto a flat tabletop) and clipping, the weight can't send the bike forward as much because there is resistance from the ground there. When clipping a sharper landing, the bike has nothing under the front wheel so I guess the impact isn't as severe.

Where as with real life, wouldn't this allow the front suspension to then absorb some of the impact when flat ground is landed on versus a dropping backside where you would likely get flung forward and over the bars?

I know I'm asking more questions and still not giving answers. I don't know the answers - but hoping to point out some situations to come to a solution eventually.

But in short, I think adding another variable like the 5 feet would most likely cause more inconsistency versus solve the problem.

Could be. I'm just trying to come up with a simple rule that would toughen up the rider on the small stuff while still preventing unrealistic impacts.

I understand what you're saying about clipping the front edge of a table vs clipping a double, but I can't see a simple rule to detect each situation. Although if you clip a double bad enough you'll endo even without having the rider fall off.

A good question would be, when do we actually want the rider to fall off? Should it only happen when landing a jump or should extreme G outs like hitting a wall jump too fast trigger it too?

[checkerz]

It appears again to be the weight transfer. When landing to flat ground (or onto a flat tabletop) and clipping, the weight can't send the bike forward as much because there is resistance from the ground there. When clipping a sharper landing, the bike has nothing under the front wheel so I guess the impact isn't as severe.

Where as with real life, wouldn't this allow the front suspension to then absorb some of the impact when flat ground is landed on versus a dropping backside where you would likely get flung forward and over the bars?

I know I'm asking more questions and still not giving answers. I don't know the answers - but hoping to point out some situations to come to a solution eventually.

But in short, I think adding another variable like the 5 feet would most likely cause more inconsistency versus solve the problem.

Could be. I'm just trying to come up with a simple rule that would toughen up the rider on the small stuff while still preventing unrealistic impacts.

I understand what you're saying about clipping the front edge of a table vs clipping a double, but I can't see a simple rule to detect each situation. Although if you clip a double bad enough you'll endo even without having the rider fall off.

A good question would be, when do we actually want the rider to fall off? Should it only happen when landing a jump or should extreme G outs like hitting a wall jump too fast trigger it too?

i can't think of a reason to need a fall off from hitting a wall/face too fast. If I had that situation happening on a track, I'd likely get rid of it. Perhaps there is a time, but I can't think of it.

The ones I'd like to get rid of would be in the whoops and stepping onto a tabletop in SX generally from table to table i notice it more often.

I still feel like the fall off when falling from extremely high angles is too low as well. Would it be possible to have the falloff limit ramp up based on the steepness of the angle you are dropping from?And to add more confusion, a variable based on distance? Yea, that won't cause any tuning issues and more problems... (kidding, but that would be in my head the ultimate solution if tuned properly)

I mean, I would think if I jumped 300 feet, and 70 feet up, I'd have to have a near perfect landing to live, while jumping 300 feet from 50 feet up would need a slightly less perfect landing.