For those who feel it's time to pay for your stuff.

[mxrewind665]

Well I'm contemplating on this. I feel my work should be free. However it's shitty when all I get is pms attacking me instead of criticizing me on how to make things better. Along with releasing a track for hundreds or thousands to download and not 1 comment. Others have decided they want to require a payment.(notice I didn't say donation bc if it's required it's not a donation).

My idea for those who feel the need to get paid here is a suggestion. Instead of having an individual pay for the track and then it gets passed on, how about you release the track for free with a password. Have a link to a support page. Set a goal of example $20. When the community as a whole has accumulated that $20 as a whole release the password. Some people may pay the $20 for everyone or leave 5 or 10. Leave it up the the individual to how much they feel they should chip in. As if they leave $1 it will take longer and it's on them why it wasn't released for a while. This way no one can buy it and share/rip. You get paid, and people not in the MXS Illuminati groups are able to get the content if they can't pay a set amount and still contribute.

Inspiration thanks to p2sta. He released something a while ago that required his page to get so many likes on FB.

[checkerz]

I just had a PM sent to a friend who knows a bit about making games and content for them. Figured I would share it here as well. It's probably my most well put together post on the subject. I promised I was done, but wanted to more share my "vision" and one of them is very closely along hte lines of what you're mentioning.

-------------------------------------------
(pasted message begins here, the first solution was continue completely free content from everyone, for everyone. That can of worms has been opened and may not be able to shut but didn't want ot paste that part and make it ridiculously long).

My second solution would be a full DLC system. JLV would have to integrate a key system into the game or something along those lines tying a download to a UID. He'd take a percentage of each sale for being the middle man and making the investment to code the system while we would have a secure system in place for selling content. Guys wouldn't be able to be ripped off because it is a governed system, and ripping/stealing isn't a problem because again, it's not the wild west anymore. I don't see that happening.

I could very easily charge for tracks with current setup. I've thought about it a ton and have concepts drawn out to do just that. I just haven't pulled the trigger because I don't want to. I don't want to admit that is the way everything is going to go regardless of what I say.

- Charge a fee to race a series or event, release track 1 hour prior to everyone for free, but to race you have to pay. Only risk here is others running a series on the same tracks for free. A simple request to not run a race on the track for atleast a month I think would work still. This community gkeeps oing with free content, doesn't charge for the track itself so doesn't upset others who maybe modeled the trees you used or made the decals you placed. This is the one I would probably go with if I were going to charge.

- Build requested tracks. Guys hit me up all the time asking me to build their local track or a team compound and always offer money. I could do some of these. Thing that sucks is, it is a one time fee, you can't charge multiple times for the same item this way (ie. selling the same KTM model to 20 people) and the prices offered is very low. I told a guy $100 the other day to even consider it and he thought I was joking. Now, I could build a base "SX test track" environment and just change the track within the fences pretty quickly and sell a shit load of those in a short amount of time since SX is relatively fast and painless to build. Still, not worth my time.

- Have a handful of tracks or a "track pack" ready for release. Do a kickstarter campaign or something similar. Once a certain cumulative donation pool is reached, release the content. This one would probably upset those who made assets for the track if you didn't make everything 100% yourself.

So for now, I'm going to keep building what I want to build and see what plays out.

[mxrewind665]

Once a certain cumulative donation pool is reached, release the content. This one would probably upset those who made assets for the track if you didn't make everything 100% yourself.

Ah yes the flaw in the idea I was waiting to hear but couldn't think of. It seems that fact is proven there is no yet way to charge content in any way that is foolproof that anyone is yet to think of. As i wish to never charge rather have a thankyou, some constructive comments and appericiation. Although I made this idea I believe in a free content community. Always.

[m121c]

You then have to value what your content is worth in your own eyes and hope the goal is met. If it isn't what do you do? Who's s to say you ever meet that goal but 10 people have already sent in money? You think those 10 people would want their money back eventually because nothing got released right?

Legitimately trying to sell DLC will never work with this community or game. One, the game is not set up for it that protects the content. Two, we have way to many jealous children around here. If you want to make some cash from it all, I think the best way to do it is provide a service such as racing, or exclusivity of certain content for a period of time.

[checkerz]

You then have to value what your content is worth in your own eyes and hope the goal is met. If it isn't what do you do? Who's s to say you ever meet that goal but 10 people have already sent in money? You think those 10 people would want their money back eventually because nothing got released right?

Legitimately trying to sell DLC will never work with this community or game. One, the game is not set up for it that protects the content. Two, we have way to many jealous children around here. If you want to make some cash from it all, I think the best way to do it is provide a service such as racing, or exclusivity of certain content for a period of time.

With a kickstarter program, nothing is charged until the goal is met. So if it isn't met, there isn't a return and no one pays for something they didn't receive. If not met, your choice then is to lower the amount and try again or don't release the content at all, or don't release it with a fee.

To the second point, I clearly said I don't see it happening because it would require JLV support and a lot of it.

We've talked about this a lot, and I agree those methods are the best with what is available. Do you see the point about others not being responsible enough to do something proper, it causing issues, and hurting the community? Are you just thinking those guys will weed themselves out? What about those who don't want to deal with the trouble for what translates to a few pennies per hour but are also annoyed for having to pay for content while releasing theirs for free? Is that money you'll make worth losing them for? Many will have different answers to those questions, I'm just bringing them up. I gave up trying to convince people to share my views, some will agree and some will disagree.

When it comes to building fun, custom, one off stuff; you can bet I still will create content and release it because I enjoy it. I'm not in the group mentioned above that will leave because of this. I can say I don't see myself putting hours upon hours into replicas that I don't enjoy for "the community" for nothing while others are charging for content. You guys may want to start ass kissing barrington ASAP if that is the road you intend to travel and hope he's okay with it.

Mason, I hope you see that after a ton of thought and discussion on the topic that I still don't see any issue with the plan you've proposed in itself, but the avalanche that will come behind it (the one that already is started) is what I have a problem with and wish to avoid... but we aren't going to and I'm not even going to attempt to convince you to not sell your Honda. I get it. I also don't solely blame you or any one person. You definitely aren't the first snowball to be thrown and won't be the last.

I will end with this (though I clearly can't stay away so I won't say I'm going to), do you ever ask or care to ask "what is best for the community?" Clearly Mason has, because he's releasing his Honda after a time period. Though, Mason in particular since you have shown you care atleast a bit (maybe a lot) with doing that, have you looked at the broader picture I just painted above? Is what you are going to make worth it? Again, only you can answer that question. At the end of the day, you are providing content free of charge to all of us, and I applaud that and thank you for that regardless of what you decide to do.

[m121c]

Thanks Chris, I completely see what you are seeing. It's a complete shit storm I will agree, and unfortunately a lot of people are miss interpreting what my idea really is and just see the $$$, which is resulting in this avalanche you speak about. I know you understand it, and I thank you for actually reading on what it is really about, I still get people freaking out because they didn't read it all.

I will take a majority of responsibility for it, I mean I am probably the most outspoken individual on this forum on subjects like this (I like money I guess ), but what I hate is the words are now being twisted and manipulated from what I originally was trying to make a point on.

I have always said free content is the best content, at the same time, the way the community has been going recently (as in the last year or better) I can't say I blame others for NOT releasing there stuff and taking the opportunity to make extra cash. What I can't stand is I keep being used as an example in everyone posts about selling stuff, I've never sold one single thing. Have I had people pay me to make them stuff? Heck yes, but I did not make it and then ask money for it. I've never done that and still not doing it. I guess that's just people thinking they know what is going on but really don't, they just open there mouths with out knowing the real story.

I don't see this staying really, but really there is nothing we can do now and I think we are always going to have this battle. We are wasting our breathes. At the end of the day everyone is going to do what they want, whether it be free, paid, ripped, whatever.

[mxrewind665]

I feel that the "golden error" for MXS was 2007-mid 2012. Then a shit ton of users with the want want want mindset came in. When they didn't get get get. They fend for themselves. This crowded community was manipulated by the overwhelming amount of new uneducated users. There is no way to weed them out. The only way is in time when they get sick of this game and call it quits. But for now I guess the older forum users will just have to block out the few/many but not all newest users who not pick.

[Holt_619]

As a casual onlooker to the whole "charging for content" thing that has been going on lately (because I have no skill to make any in-game content of actual worth), I have had one question that maybe Chris can answer since he may have seen some of it while working on MVA. What kind of legal issues do people start to run into if they charge for replica content? Not trying to stir up any drama or talk about anyone in particular, I am actually legitimately curious. Is that why the suggestions involve a free track release and charging for racing instead of charging for the replica track itself? Just wanted to throw that out there, because I never would want anybody to get into any kind of copyright trouble.

I will always believe that free content from everyone for the benefit of everyone is the best way to go, but I understand the amount of time that goes into this stuff and that it is nice to see some sort of return for it.

[checkerz]

Sammy, I'm not sure, it's sticky when you get into selling replica content. I believe JLV has shared previously some precedence that it was found in favor of those creating/selling the content. At THQ, our legal department's motto was run away from anything that may cause anyone to look and make us have to actually work. Ever wonder why the Razorback and other red dirt tracks were in Stillwater, TEXAS and not Stillwater, Oklahoma? That's why, they were afraid someone might sue for some reason if we used a fucking town name.

When it came to bikes, we had to be 20% different. That's why pre-OEM licenses they would have a Honda front end and a Kawi rear end. That was the easiest way to make "realistic" bikes without infringing.

That changed when we were pushed (by THQ) to go to the "new" digital base game with a shit load of DLC. The reason licensed bikes weren't in the previous games is they wanted a percentage of sales as part of the license agreement. THQ wouldn't feature them without a license agreement for fear of being sued. They weren't about to give up a chunk of the $60 copies they were selling either. KTM was willing to release the license for a flat rate, one time payment vs. a license fee from what I recall. It may have even been a cross promo/free deal. Those were prior to me being directly involved with the day to day. When Alive came around, they nuked the good looking "THQ brand" bikes to encourage people to buy DLC. Licenses were able to be secured because now instead of sharing a piece of the $60 game they were only having to share a percentage of each Honda 250f or Kawi 250f or whatever with the respective OEM. THQ wasn't really making anything off of the OEMs by the time Microsoft/Sony took their cut and the OEM's took theirs. It was just content to support the game and players and community. I know, surprising.

With all of that said, I do believe many car games just feature the cars. I believe they have a "no damage" policy to keep from letting the cars get wrecked in the game for fear of law suits from what I've heard but can't verify if any of that is actually true. All of that is speaking about OEMs within an actual title though with the exception of THQ DLC'ing the direct models.

I would have to say, if a company is paying for licensing rights for the bikes and a competing product has the same bikes available for sale without the OEM being involved that they might get pissed and have action taken if they were to find out. Then again, they probably already know and either don't care or have no power to do anything. I really don't know. I would assume an official letter would come first saying not to continue before anything more drastic. All assumptions though and I wouldn't be too worried honestly.

As far as the tracks are concerned, I haven't really considered the fact of selling replicas much. Mainly because I believe the rF supercross and national tracks should always remain free because it's best for the community.

The reasons I mentioned charging for the racing versus the tracks are:
- It doesn't hurt the community by limiting content, everyone gets the tracks.
- You don't risk having "rippers" or scumbags sharing content they aren't supposed to because everyone gets access to the same thing at the same time.
- Many people build assets (trees, bales, buildings, decals, etc.) that are used on tracks. It wouldn't be proper to sell a track and pocket the money when any piece of it wasn't made by you. I don't do shady and that'd be shady.
- If someone was to charge for a track with those assets, don't you think the guys making the trees, rocks, bales, etc. would start charging for the release of those? I don't want to pay to buy objects to make a track so I won't go down that road.
- By charging for the racing, when someone pays they get to sign up and race. If they don't pay, they don't get to sign up and race. It's easy to manage. If I sell the track, it's easy for someone to share the link or re-upload the track and share.

[Holt_619]

Wow, that's some interesting stuff about THQ and the business behind all of it. Always been very interested in that aspect of it so thanks for all that info.

As far as tracks go, I totally see the point. It would be hard to keep track of all people technically involved with the track based on the objects/textures/etc used.

I do agree with you on the racing aspect of things. Not only would it be easier to justify the hours of work everyone does to organize everything, but I think the racing would be noticeably better. If you look at a game like iRacing (I know it's the obvious example), people are a lot more careful about their racing style than they are in a game where they don't have to pay for their entry to a race. People will probably disagree with that, but I know that I already try to be as clean as possible and would try even harder to avoid suspension-worthy offenses if there was something tangible to lose.

[Big Smooth one3]

Allow me to jump in here with a simple question for track and content creators - what is the overall goal of charging?

This isn't a sarcastic question, and I may be one of the "newer" members mentioned above, but I think Chris would back me up in saying I'm not trying to take the "you guys should do it all for free" stance. We have had a lot...A LOT...of talk and ideas about the best model for charging, should we charge, how to do we charge, what are we charging for, how to disperse the earnings, etc. What there seems to be is a lack of clarity to this discussion - at least in my mind - and I'm trying to figure out the motivation you guys have for wanting to charge. Like Sammy, I have no creative skills to offer to the community (cue guilty feeling), so I wouldn't begin to tell you guys what do to or pretend that I have earned a say in the end result of this pay-for-play discussion. That said, when trying to clear out all the clutter within that discussion, I think it's vital to identify what you're trying to get out of charging for content.

I imagine that is different for some creators than others, which may be why it's such a divergent discussion. Maybe it's just me, but the answer to that question might help re-focus things...maybe.

From my perspective, it seems like there are a few lesser-known/newer/less prominent (not meant as an insult) creators/builders who are genuinely seeking payment for the purpose of having money. For Chris - and please tell me if I'm off here Chex, don't want to put words in your mouth - it seems like your more interested in not being taken advantage of. You put out some of the best content that is released to the community and have spent countless hours over the years doing all of it for free, so if others are getting paid for their content and you aren't, I can 100% understand your sentiment. So I guess for you Chex, are you really trying to get paid, or are you just feeling as if your contributions are undervalued since others have received payment for content and you haven't? I honestly don't know the answer to that question, for you or for any of the other numerous people who consistently contribute high quality content to the rest of us.

I know that's a bit rambling, but I'm trying to be cautious as to not impose any of my thoughts onto any of you who are directly tied into this. I guess I'll just end with this: what's the point?

Disclaimer: I hope this message is taken how it was intended - meaning NOT as an insult to any other opinions or as me taking a stance against any creators who feel that they should be compensated/valued for what they do for the thousands of us within the MXS community. To those of you who fall into that category, thank you for giving the rest of us an ever-evolving and constantly updated game - there is truly nothing else like it.

[mxrewind665]

To be completely honest with you.( not speaking for anyone just voicing why I see and intemperate ) I don't want to charge for content nor would I. I made this as a suggestion to those who feel the need to. However to answer the why question, it all started with Attackers and andys models being ripped. Maybe before those models. Also they felt that when people made things such as the golden Ktm or shitty graphics for their bikes that they took time to make look professional it made them look bad. To control the situation the future models became "exclusive" to those popular players writhing said "MXS Illuminati". The smart asses who couldn't get it would rip it for everyone to get a hold of. My question then was why do they care if a shitty skin makes it on their bike? I don't know because it's not their skin and that skin doesn't make anyone think the modeler is shit bc the others skin. Back on track. From there the modeler realized there were weasels in the said hidden group who shared it and passes it around. From their the modeler felt if it was paid only it would weed the shitty guy out. Then it went all sorts of directions. Others such as track makers and race host and other modelers wanted to be paid for the time "THEY CHOSE AND WERE NOT FORCED TO TAKE TO MAKE THE CREATION". (Hence why I won't charge for content. As I chose to spend the time and no one made me). Some will say they feel un appericiated and it is true. The amount of shit I got during arenacross was discouraging to both me and the event host. The payment itself is for no reason at all. People just want money in this world as money is the root to all evil. The MXS community is a miniature history. Everything was free at one point in the history of time and look nearly everything coast a dollar.

That is the history of the MXS money situation. (record phone text I have ever typed on my phone)

[slowngreen]

I have paid for skins in the past, because I wanted something specific and couldnt do it myself. I also said recently that if a track was "epic" I might pay for it. That was before I put any though into it. The amount of people here, in my opinion, who make tracks worthy of actually being paid for is minimal. So if very many people started wanting paid, I would imagine the amount of downloads for their content, that they are wanting credit for, would diminish drastically from what it might get now, thus completely back firing.

I dont know for sure but I imagine alot of the ones wanting paid are kids under 18 who dont have any job for likely obvious reasons. If they want to be able to still get good content without having to pay the money they dont have, it needs to go both ways and they need to release their content for free. Tit for tat.

I also think JLV should be the only one making money for MXsim as he alone has the ability to improve the game. If money changes hands for any public content, I think it should go into a MXsim account or something for future game upgrades. I think most of us want certain things like better sounds, maybe rider shadows and yada yada yada, so maybe any funds obtained for user created content could go towards game improvements instead. Obviously it would need to work like others have said on a content release incentive of reaching a certain price and not individually paid prices. No one should have the right to make a living off this game except the creator.

I can imagine that if it were to come to lots of people charging for tracks (and other stuff) that this game would come to a quick halt as far as an online community is concerned. Everyone would just end up playing offline on track they already own. Why would you want to play on a server than has a track only a few people decided to buy? Might be cool at first but it wouldnt last long.

[Big Smooth one3]

To be completely honest with you.( not speaking for anyone just voicing why I see and intemperate ) I don't want to charge for content nor would I. I made this as a suggestion to those who feel the need to. However to answer the why question, it all started with Attackers and andys models being ripped. Maybe before those models. Also they felt that when people made things such as the golden Ktm or shitty graphics for their bikes that they took time to make look professional it made them look bad. To control the situation the future models became "exclusive" to those popular players writhing said "MXS Illuminati". The smart asses who couldn't get it would rip it for everyone to get a hold of. My question then was why do they care if a shitty skin makes it on their bike? I don't know because it's not their skin and that skin doesn't make anyone think the modeler is shit bc the others skin. Back on track. From there the modeler realized there were weasels in the said hidden group who shared it and passes it around. From their the modeler felt if it was paid only it would weed the shitty guy out. Then it went all sorts of directions. Others such as track makers and race host and other modelers wanted to be paid for the time "THEY CHOSE AND WERE NOT FORCED TO TAKE TO MAKE THE CREATION". (Hence why I won't charge for content. As I chose to spend the time and no one made me). Some will say they feel un appericiated and it is true. The amount of shit I got during arenacross was discouraging to both me and the event host. The payment itself is for no reason at all. People just want money in this world as money is the root to all evil. The MXS community is a miniature history. Everything was free at one point in the history of time and look nearly everything coast a dollar.

That is the history of the MXS money situation. (record phone text I have ever typed on my phone)

Also doing this one from the phone, so I'll keep it short.

I wasn't asking what led up to everything as much as what the desired end result was. Believe me, I hear what your saying and don't have any qualms with it - especially as it applies to those making skins, which are obviously a more personalized creation- just want to make sure my original message is clear...which I guess i didn't do a great job of lol

[mxrewind665]

Pretty much there is no exact reason. They feel they need compensation for their time that they spent that no one appreciates.