2020 Dynos

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Jones221
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Jeremy150 wrote:I disagree, I think it targets people new to the game rather than the people already here. However, I am obviously going to be biased in the fact that these bikes keep getting faster and it makes it harder to create tracks, especially supercross.
Traction traction traction. Your numbers are broken man josh pointed it out. Learn how to slow the bikes down. After looking at thunder valley you didn’t listen to anything.
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Jones221
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Both the 250 and 450 class have only gained about 3hp since 2010 so this bikes are too fast argument is invalid. Your tracks are freeways with wall berms jerm
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Jeremy150
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jeremy150 »

Go ride one of our SX tracks from 2014 and I think it's pretty clear the power difference
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Jeremy150
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jeremy150 »

Also I want to mention that I by no means think that it's JLV's fault. I think the major factor in this is the traction settings. There are multiple things we can do (most currently would be looking into the slip_function setting) and have tried before, however any time there is a minor traction adjustment the community goes absolutely crazy about it. I mean we even get bashed for traction feeling slippery when we haven't touched the core settings in years :lol:

You should be expecting some new traction settings being rolled in soon, as something will definitely need to be done before SX. Especially if we keep getting faster bikes. The rollers we have to put before rhythm sections really ruins the flow of a track, all in the name of not being able to 4 or 5 into sections.
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Jones221
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Failed point as SX in 2014 did not compensate for erode, online erode was circa 2017. Tracks released prior have a different feel entirely. I’m not sure how the game generates missing tile map data, but you must figure that data isn’t even included. Also instead of dumping tracks onto the public test privately then you won’t face public backlash. But running a p2r series, you should be open ears. I wish one of the og’s would step in here with some knowledge/translation of JLV’s thought process on the previous post telling you the problems with your traction.

Also in 2014, we didn’t have this Erode Manipulation (multiple tilemaps for different erode settings) that Checkerz has brought in which I think now bring more inconsistencies in traction.
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Jeremy150
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jeremy150 »

What? I don't think you understand how the tileinfo settings work. Why do you think there is "missing tile map data"?

The friction settings are the same across most of the tileinfo settings, unless of course it is a loam or sand setting.
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Jones221
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Tile Info* sorry if that was part of the confusion but here.
2014 San Diego Tile Info
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vs

2020 Red Bud Tile Berm Exit Info
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For example - there is no erode limit. along with others.

and although frictions are the same I still think a change in erode settings cause a change in traction.
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jeremy150 »

Right, we are using erode settings now, but they do not affect the friction settings. If you mean that an eroded/rough terrains feels different than a smooth terrain, then I can definitely agree with you.
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Hi Im Skyqe
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

Jones221 wrote:Both the 250 and 450 class have only gained about 3hp since 2010 so this bikes are too fast argument is invalid. Your tracks are freeways with wall berms jerm
Take erode and traction completely out of this. Riding the same track in single player, do you believe that you can run the same lap time on a 2011 RMZ dyno as you can on a 2017 FC dyno? You took what he said completely out of context, traction and erode have nothing to do with what he stating.

Looking at peak numbers on a dyno graph tells very little as well, the newer engines have wider curves, which makes a difference.

Correct me if I am wrong but I also believe that JLV uses the lowest weight for each year as well? There was a substantial weight reduction made by KTM in 2016.
tyskorn
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by tyskorn »

I think weight is from the bike he based the geometry off of, which was like an 06 CRF450 I'm thinking. But, that knowledge is many years old and hasn't been relevant to me for just as long, so I'm not too sure. :lol:
Jones221
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Well, the 2011 yamaha 250 just topped out at 97mph, the newest ktm 250 only hit 93. The 450's both hit the same top speed of 120. I bring up traction because look what happened to this thread, it shifted over to a traction thread lol. might as well look at all factors if some members of the community think the bikes are too fast.

image if need proof
https://i.gyazo.com/489df8037c2866b0c80 ... 58c708.png
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Jones221
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

sorry the 2009 yamaha**
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Hi Im Skyqe
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

tyskorn wrote:I think weight is from the bike he based the geometry off of, which was like an 06 CRF450 I'm thinking. But, that knowledge is many years old and hasn't been relevant to me for just as long, so I'm not too sure. :lol:
Yeah tried searching if it ever changed and couldn't see anything but he did post what the weights used are in a thread.

Don't see anything else about it being changed but I thought I had read that they might have changed at some point.. Might be wrong though.
jlv wrote:Here are the weights the game currently uses. Not sure if different masses for every single bike is a good idea or not. Might be hard to keep the numbers up to date as new bikes come out.

Code: Select all

Poundage                        YZ125   CRF250R KX250   CRF450R
Weight, ready to ride, no gas   200.00  215.00  225.00  231.00
Engine                          38.00   54.00   55.00   63.00
Frame                           18.80   21.76   24.20   22.36
Swingarm pivot bolt             0.60    0.58    0.56    0.58
Swingarm with chain guide       9.40    8.70    10.76   8.60
Front wheel                     17.30   17.16   17.30   17.10
Rear wheel                      24.78   22.96   25.02   23.78
Fork                            19.96   19.28   20.74   19.30
Shock                           8.22    8.98    8.46    9.06
Muffler                         2.42    4.08    2.42    5.32
Pipe/header                     3.76    1.54    5.54    1.18
Carburetor with throttle        2.16    3.62    2.50    3.40
Front brake                     2.96    2.56    2.64    2.56
Rear brake                      3.32    2.70    3.44    2.72
Chain                           3.38    3.46    3.46    3.48
Front axle                      0.75    0.66    0.74    0.66
Rear axle                       1.24    1.28    1.20    1.28
Total                           157.04  173.32  183.98  184.38
Remainder of bike               42.96   41.68   41.02   46.62
Jones221 wrote:Well, the 2011 yamaha 250 just topped out at 97mph, the newest ktm 250 only hit 93. The 450's both hit the same top speed of 120. I bring up traction because look what happened to this thread, it shifted over to a traction thread lol. might as well look at all factors if some members of the community think the bikes are too fast.

image if need proof
https://i.gyazo.com/489df8037c2866b0c80 ... 58c708.png
Top speed is based on final drive ratio, without aerodynamics and other limiting factors, you can do the same top speed with 40 HP as you can with 60 HP all else being equal.

An acceleration test would be much more accurate in determining which dyno would be quickest for racing.
Jones221
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Lazy test you are right, didn’t fully check ratios just left it long nascar setup. And yes if JLV could give us some update as far as what data is used that would be nice.
If you truly believe they are accelerating too fast just pull a Shackattack for an in-game comparison. I guess this comes down to everyone’s definition of what is too fast. To me, the increase is just proof that ECU’s have increased the performance of motorcycles and is nothing to worry about. If we could get the current data and move forward using the most accurate data collected, win win? And we will save traction for another season? :lol:
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jlv
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by jlv »

I'm still using the mass numbers that Peter posted.

For the skins on the wrong bike thing, I can't say I like the practice. I'd ban it if I could. But if people really demand that their skin only appear on the most powerful bike, would a "g450f" that just uses the max torque value at every point of the curve out of all the bikes solve that? Then you could just put the graphics on that and ignore the "correct" bikes. Actually, that's not any different than the current 450sxf is it? I'm not sure what to do on that front.

If you want HP to be less of an issue you need less traction and less rolling resistance. Having velcro traction and then slowing it down with molasses like drag basically turns the track into a HP contest since it's impossible to carry momentum on a weaker bike. But it's tough since anything that doesn't let you corner so hard that your elbow is dragging will have people complaining that they're riding on ice.
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