2020 Dynos

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jlv
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by jlv »

Jeremy150 wrote:
motokid499 wrote:
Jeremy150 wrote:I have some concerns about it for regular dirt though. For some reason at very high speeds, the back end of the bike gets a bit slippery, almost like randomly jumping into a mud pit. Would that be something that needs to get adjusted in the traction settings?
Does this happen under engine braking? Maybe because it works against acceleration, you also get less traction when deaccelerating ex) using engine braking instead of brakes?
No, specifically what happened was when I jumped down a hill into a bump my backend flew out 90 degrees.
Glad to hear you're trying it. Is the slippery thing flukey or consistent? Can you post the settings you used?
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Jeremy150
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jeremy150 »

jlv wrote:Glad to hear you're trying it. Is the slippery thing flukey or consistent? Can you post the settings you used?

Code: Select all

friction 1.0 0
friction 1.2 1.5
friction 1.1 15
friction 1.2 30
slip_function 2
roll_resist 40.0 60.0 35.0
roll_resist 50.0 70.0 45.0
erode_depth 4.5
erode_lower 50.0
erode_upper 120.0
erode_displacement 0.15
erode_radius 8.0
erode_inner_depth 3.55
erode_inner_radius 3.5
erode_min_slope -0.75
erode_max_slope 0.75
erode_off_speed 10.0
erode_on_speed 16.0
erode_slip_base_scale 1.0
erode_slip_scale 1.0
erode_slip_lower 0.0
erode_slip_upper 5.0
erode_downhill_scale 0.8
erode_limit 0.00 2.00 3.00
erode_limit 0.45 1.50 2.00
erode_limit 0.95 0.80 1.50
erode_limit 1.5 0.35 1.00
erode_limit 2.25 0.25 0.75
erode_limit 3.25 0.05 .25
Seems to consistently happen under heavy force or high speeds.

Another problem I'm having is, when trying to take off from a dead stop, it is actually impossible to loop out on a 450. 1st gear, fully leaned back, and dumping the clutch and not even close to the front wheel lifting at all. (same friction and roll resist settings)
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jlv
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by jlv »

Jeremy150 wrote:
jlv wrote:Glad to hear you're trying it. Is the slippery thing flukey or consistent? Can you post the settings you used?

Code: Select all

friction 1.0 0
friction 1.2 1.5
friction 1.1 15
friction 1.2 30
slip_function 2
roll_resist 40.0 60.0 35.0
roll_resist 50.0 70.0 45.0
erode_depth 4.5
erode_lower 50.0
erode_upper 120.0
erode_displacement 0.15
erode_radius 8.0
erode_inner_depth 3.55
erode_inner_radius 3.5
erode_min_slope -0.75
erode_max_slope 0.75
erode_off_speed 10.0
erode_on_speed 16.0
erode_slip_base_scale 1.0
erode_slip_scale 1.0
erode_slip_lower 0.0
erode_slip_upper 5.0
erode_downhill_scale 0.8
erode_limit 0.00 2.00 3.00
erode_limit 0.45 1.50 2.00
erode_limit 0.95 0.80 1.50
erode_limit 1.5 0.35 1.00
erode_limit 2.25 0.25 0.75
erode_limit 3.25 0.05 .25
Seems to consistently happen under heavy force or high speeds.

Another problem I'm having is, when trying to take off from a dead stop, it is actually impossible to loop out on a 450. 1st gear, fully leaned back, and dumping the clutch and not even close to the front wheel lifting at all. (same friction and roll resist settings)
Try this instead. You want negative slip (meaning slip away from the direction of motion that happens during acceleration) to fall off and you also generally want the static friction (at slip speed 0) to be a bit higher than the sliding friction. Since the positive slip doesn't have to deal with the slip speeds you get from acceleration you can ramp up at lower speeds without causing problems.

friction 1.0 -1.5
friction 1.2 0
friction 1.1 0.5
friction 1.2 1.5

One downside of the 1.2 static is someone who is really skillful with throttle control could accelerate way better than someone who just pins it and spins. Not sure if that's a feature or not. So maybe 1.1 instead there.
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

so how bout them dynos, glad this turned into a productive traction discussion and finding some flaws in Jeremys numbers but if bikes are too fast just bump up the weight of the rider. Average weight male weight 195
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by jlv »

I've been thinking about retroactively scaling down the old numbers. I always the exact numbers from whatever dyno source I have, which causes problems when switching sources since one dyno might read higher than another. My thought was that since there's usually a bike that hasn't changed, I could probably adjust the various sources so unchanged bikes remain unchanged. Basically, use the rmz450 as the unit HP scale and in years where the rmz changed use whichever bike didn't change.

What do you guys think is the best dyno source currently?
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Atom6246 »

jlv wrote:I've been thinking about retroactively scaling down the old numbers.
That would be interesting, especially if it happens to come out before the 2020 racing season ends. Though I do think our current bikes are OP, would add a bit of a curve ball. I think a more beneficial update at this time would be optimization (such as erode to a separate core).
jlv wrote:My thought was that since there's usually a bike that hasn't changed, I could probably adjust the various sources so unchanged bikes remain unchanged. Basically, use the rmz450 as the unit HP scale and in years where the rmz changed use whichever bike didn't change.
I don't quite understand this. Could you/someone simplify this for me? :oops:

Also will we be seeing a GasGas in the next dyno snapshot?
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Kael_Braden »

i feel like traction now is way to grippy. Southwicks traction was a joke i didnt wash the front end once and im terrible.. i just wish it was like 2012 where it took throttle control and you couldnt be wicked everywhere
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Atom6246 wrote:null
Josh has previous waited pre or post RF seasons to drop new dynos.. I think after years he understands changes during the racing season is a bad call.
Also everyone at one point has said switch to a newer OpenGL or another engine but that’s a bit of a hurdle. Personally I wish Josh would quit worrying about older systems and move forward as well. Could be the ultimate solution for erode to switch up,


As far as the rest of your post Atom, Josh is talking about the drastic change we may see from a new dyno source (vs current dyno source he has used being the same source since 2010). If he matches the Current RMZ dyno with the New RMZ dyno he is getting different numbers. If the bike did not change between production years then the number should not of changed. Instead he can fix the numbers by converting and eliminate a factor. Also ktm didn’t make it in game for 3 years, sister company can wait.

I didn’t do much research on the source of these. I see no issues with the current bikes speed and if you prefer to do the leg work of converting then by all means do it. But this brings back the previous point of, maybe it’s time to scrap the oldies?
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Atom6246 »

Thank's for clearing that up Jones!
Jones221 wrote:maybe it’s time to scrap the oldies?
I wouldn't necessarily mind this, but I do enjoy going back to old dynos occasionally and playing old tracks. "Reminisce" if you will. Possibly just enforcing certain year dynos for racing would be a better option? I suppose I could always go back in snapshots if I wanted but that could cause some confusion for casuals.
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by jlv »

There's no need to scrap the old dynos. Plus they're needed for old demos to work. In an ideal world I'd have dynos going back to the 70's.
Atom6246 wrote:I don't quite understand this. Could you/someone simplify this for me? :oops:
Say my preferred dyno has the 2019 rmz at 50 HP and the yz at 52. Now say I have a new source for the 2020's that has the rmz at 49 and the yz at 53. The rmz should be the same, so to get the adjusted yz number I'd multiply the yz number by 2019rmz/2020rmz, i.e. 53*(50/49)=54.08.

The idea would be I'd take the current numbers and work backwards to make the old dynos consistent and then in the future use the same trick going forward so there will never be a big jump from switching dyno sources. It's kind of dicey but since the sources are constantly changing it might be the better way.
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jeremy150 »

In my opinion, I don't think it's really worth doing new dynos anymore. I don't think its a major selling point, and it typically forces people to whichever bike was the fastest that year. I'd much rather see a rework of the dyno system and moving forward being able to have skins work across multiple dynos.

It may encourage people to ride other dynos just to be different and would look better when you don't have someone's skins. Right now someone with no skins downloaded will basically see nothing but SXF250s in the 250 class.

However for the 450s I do like the balance between the FC450 and CRF450, I'm not sure how you did it but there seems to be a major handling difference between the two. From memory, the only thing that changes between bikes is the power curve, right?
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Jeremy150 wrote:From memory, the only thing that changes between bikes is the power curve, right?
Only power/dyno numbers. Wet weight and physics would be the next level of development and I think the mxb community is on that if someone can confirm.

Also a “selling point?” This is for the dudes who bought it already. None competitive people who ride irl usually like to ride the bike they ride irl. There’s still a community outside of rf or sanctioned racing.


Josh, I would like what you’re thinking. I hope this brings back the 2 strokes a bit.
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jones221 »

Also

Instead of scraping oldies, I know you prefer staying away from manufacturer names so how about sorting by models?
Example: Click the model -> lists years and versions available.
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Jeremy150
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Jeremy150 »

I disagree, I think it targets people new to the game rather than the people already here. However, I am obviously going to be biased in the fact that these bikes keep getting faster and it makes it harder to create tracks, especially supercross.
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Re: 2020 Dynos

Post by Quinten »

Jeremy150 wrote:I disagree, I think it targets people new to the game rather than the people already here. However, I am obviously going to be biased in the fact that these bikes keep getting faster and it makes it harder to create tracks, especially supercross.
I stand with Jeremy and Aeffertz. 250s are really fast and cause tracks to have to accommodate the speed of the 250 and 450. Some sort of resistance to slow down the bikes to bring back some scaling would be cool and to slow the pace back down a bit. If everyone wants new dynos, JLV, you should just rename the 2018 dynos to 2020 :lol: :lol: (problem solved).
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