Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post your suggestions here
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

If I understand correctly, whenever the front tire lifts off the ground and retouches, the landing damping settings apply on impact. These settings are very useful in many situations and for the most part I don't see anyone not using these settings to their benefit.

When I came back to mxs after a 2 year hiatus, I quickly learnt that many setting combinations that were possible to use before, were no longer possible. You may be familiar with the term "chatter" when talking about erode in this game. From my understanding, chatter is basically the physical resolution of the ground being too low for the torus wheel model to make consistent contact with the ground, causing a feeling of "chatter" or riding on marbles. To my knowledge, the lowered pixel count for the ground is because the game would lag too much using higher res terrain.

Here's the big problem with chatter; it triggers the landing damping settings. Many people have come to me for help with their advanced stabilities, and one of the most common problems I hear goes something like "my bike just locks up in the rut and I have no control". This is because when your landing damping settings are applied, you get your roll damping multiplied by your landing damping factor. So if your roll damping is at 55, and your landing damping factor is at 2, you will be getting 110 roll damping for the duration of your landing damping falloff. Its great for landing jumps, going through whoops, etc, but try navigating through a bumpy rut while your bike is locked up.. Not fun. Until now, i've just been finding ways to smooth out the chatter using alternative settings but the more I think about it the more I start to consider this problem a game glitch. Now, if all my assumptions are correct, this problem happens because the front wheel is technically lifting off the ground and retouching as it hovers over the pixel gaps in the eroded terrain, triggering the the settings.

Example below:

Image

The player was turning up out of the rut, but the landing damping settings kicked in locking his bike up, causing him to stay leaned over longer than intended. I have personally seen unintentional contact being made in rF races, solely because of this bike lockup that sometimes happens in chatter. You're trying to turn, but there's just too much roll damping, too many forces fighting against each other.

Now, the logical solution would be to optimize the game in a way to be able to handle higher res ground, so the chatter issue doesn't happen, but I think I may have come up with a viable solution until then. Introduce a new setting into the advanced stability, you can call it "Landing Damping Liftoff". This setting would control what the minimum distance between the front tire and ground would be to trigger the landing damping factor. So an example would be, if you have your landing damping liftoff set to a height of 4 inches, then any missing contact between the front tire and the ground under 4 inches in height wont trigger the landing damping factor, giving you the ability to ride through chatter with much more control without sacrificing the benefits of landing damping in other areas. If there's no way to code in a measurement system like that, another possible solution would be to use amount of time between front tire making contact. In chatter, the front tire very rapidly makes contact and then loses contact to the ground, so maybe if the tire is off the ground for under a certain amount of milliseconds the landing damping settings wont kick in. Whatever's easier to code in, I would imagine height would work better, but duration of time sounds like it would be easier to add in.

Tell me what you guys think, like any idea i'm sure it could be improved on, but if the game allows micro measurements to be thrown in like that somehow, I think this is an extremely viable solution to a big problem.
Tanner Rogers
skyzen
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:35 pm
Team: IZI Racing

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by skyzen »

sick
1st 2014 Motosport Outdoor Nationals presented by One Industries
1st 2018 Race Tech North American Nationals
1st 2018 MotoOption Pro Supercross
1st 2019 MotoOption Pro National
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 3020
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

Only issue I could think of is if this is triggered by height off of the ground then how could whoops be differentiated from chatter?
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:01 pm Only issue I could think of is if this is triggered by height off of the ground then how could whoops be differentiated from chatter?
Well, whoops are typically taller than 4 inches.
Tanner Rogers
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 3020
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

motokid499 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:20 pm
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:01 pm Only issue I could think of is if this is triggered by height off of the ground then how could whoops be differentiated from chatter?
Well, whoops are typically taller than 4 inches.
Like you said in your original post, terrain resolution being low a whoop section could play into this creating an issue if the whoop itself was considered the height of the terrain. You don't get much if any lift from the tops of the whoops when blitzing. That was more a question for JLV as I am not sure how the base height is calculated.

A work around if whoop sections would be an issue is possibly seeing if a tilemap could be used to turn the feature off in select areas?
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:00 pm Like you said in your original post, terrain resolution being low a whoop section could play into this creating an issue if the whoop itself was considered the height of the terrain. You don't get much if any lift from the tops of the whoops when blitzing. That was more a question for JLV as I am not sure how the base height is calculated.

A work around if whoop sections would be an issue is possibly seeing if a tilemap could be used to turn the feature off in select areas?
Right, hopefully it calculates it from lowest to highest in the vicinity and not by base height. Ideally you'd want 1ft at the top of a jump to still be 1 foot, not 1 foot+elevation to base. Do you think the duration of time method might work better?
Tanner Rogers
Hi Im Skyqe
Posts: 3020
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Team: wat

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by Hi Im Skyqe »

motokid499 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:32 pm
Hi Im Skyqe wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:00 pm Like you said in your original post, terrain resolution being low a whoop section could play into this creating an issue if the whoop itself was considered the height of the terrain. You don't get much if any lift from the tops of the whoops when blitzing. That was more a question for JLV as I am not sure how the base height is calculated.

A work around if whoop sections would be an issue is possibly seeing if a tilemap could be used to turn the feature off in select areas?
Right, hopefully it calculates it from lowest to highest in the vicinity and not by base height. Ideally you'd want 1ft at the top of a jump to still be 1 foot, not 1 foot+elevation to base. Do you think the duration of time method might work better?
I guess it will come down to if there is a calculation for feet off ground or if it is based off of time.

I don't see how duration would work with a whoop section being a similar type of frequency to stutters.
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

I feel like as long as there is a capability to measure time down to the millisecond, you'd be fine seperating whoops and chatter. Take the time it takes you to get through the whoops, divided by the amount of whoops, and im willing to bet its far more time between air/ground than chatter is. You can hear the wheel skip in chatter at a much higher frequency than you hear yourself hit each whoop.
Tanner Rogers
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14912
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by jlv »

I could make the ramp up be slower than the current instant ramp up. Are you sure you can't just fix this with faster low speed rebound?
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

jlv wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:40 am I could make the ramp up be slower than the current instant ramp up. Are you sure you can't just fix this with faster low speed rebound?
This wouldnt be ideal, any delay to the setting will make the bike feel numb and less responsive. we already have to make sacrifices for responsiveness, because for chatter you typically want to run higher falloff and lower factor so it doesnt lock up as much. Having the falloff higher to compensate creates a numbness feeling as the bike responds slower to input (or at least feels as if it does because the damping falls off slower) Low speed rebound damping also will not fix the fact that the landing damping settings are being applied while on the ground going through a chatter rut, which is my main concern. I don't think the landing damping settings should be applying when both wheels are on the ground, even if it is technically losing and regaining contact for a split second.
Tanner Rogers
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14912
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by jlv »

motokid499 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:54 am This wouldnt be ideal, any delay to the setting will make the bike feel numb and less responsive. we already have to make sacrifices for responsiveness, because for chatter you typically want to run higher falloff and lower factor so it doesnt lock up as much. Having the falloff higher to compensate creates a numbness feeling as the bike responds slower to input (or at least feels as if it does because the damping falls off slower) Low speed rebound damping also will not fix the fact that the landing damping settings are being applied while on the ground going through a chatter rut, which is my main concern. I don't think the landing damping settings should be applying when both wheels are on the ground, even if it is technically losing and regaining contact for a split second.
You misunderstand. Right now it instantly switches to "land damping factor" the instant the front wheel leaves the ground. I could instead make it ramp up for every step it's off the ground. So if the front wheel is off the ground for only a couple of steps the effect would be minimal.
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

jlv wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:29 am You misunderstand. Right now it instantly switches to "land damping factor" the instant the front wheel leaves the ground. I could instead make it ramp up for every step it's off the ground. So if the front wheel is off the ground for only a couple of steps the effect would be minimal.
I understand now, I think it is a good idea, my only worry is that in longer ruts it will still reach the maximum landing damping factor value through the chatter. Unless it resets every time the front wheel hits the ground again, that way every time it regains contact it starts at the lowest value again.

I originally thought you meant delay the time before the initial damping kicks in after retouching.
Tanner Rogers
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

Is this something we can test out? As long as the 'bike lockup' problem is no longer present in chatter Ill try anything
Tanner Rogers
jlv
Site Admin
Posts: 14912
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:39 am
Team: No Frills Racing
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by jlv »

Was doing some OpenGL 3.1 conversion stuff. Didn't realize you were in a rush on this. Basically what you want is "landing damping ramp up" that works like falloff in reverse. Do you think the half second range that the falloff setting uses will be good for the ramp up?
Josh Vanderhoof
Sole Proprietor
jlv@mxsimulator.com
If you email, put "MX Simulator" in the subject to make sure it gets through my spam filter.
motokid499
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am
Team: Phil's
Location: Vancouver Island
Contact:

Re: Possible game bug fix? Landing Damping Liftoff

Post by motokid499 »

jlv wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:28 am Was doing some OpenGL 3.1 conversion stuff. Didn't realize you were in a rush on this. Basically what you want is "landing damping ramp up" that works like falloff in reverse. Do you think the half second range that the falloff setting uses will be good for the ramp up?
Not trying to sound like I'm in a rush, but Im very excited about the idea of being able to control the bike through chatter. I think the half second range should be a good start to try. I can go down to 0.10 in the config if I need to
Tanner Rogers
Post Reply