Track Editor and game Suggestions

ElDiablo (Paul) · Post by **ElDiablo (Paul)** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:50 am

JLV...after finally getting the track editor going I've had some time to mess around with it and I've put an already completed (but never released) track of mine into the game and rode around on it a bit. Anyway...I've got some suggestions that I'm sure won't make the top of your schedule for improvements...but I think would make track-creation a LOT easier.

The text file editing has got to go brother. It's way too difficult to figure out placement and rotation for stuff like the start gate...didn't see a finish gate...but stuff like that, object and tree placement, height/scale settings...whatever ALL needs to be able to be done in the track editor and without editing text files in my opinion. The problem is that it's so involved right now that I think you're going to have problems with anybody who makes quality tracks wanting to spend the to to go through the trouble to make, test and complete a track to release status.

Also...the bike handling is just (in my opinion) way to unpredictable and...well...not realistic on the whole. For instance...when turning...you have to hold the turn long enough to get around the corner...but then you have to countersteer to get out of the turn or your bike stays leaned over and you just keep turning. When the user releases the turn button (or lets go of the toggle on a gamepad...) the bike needs to right itself and straighten itself out. Otherwise you just can't run anything like a predicatble line on any tight tracks at all. The current handling/physics makes it technical just to ride a wide open national (motocross) track...making tight technical supercross tracks almost impossible to replicate faithfully in the game.

If you are looking to provide a realistic experience then the physics of the bike need to be scaled to the SIZE of the bike...I don't believe that's what we've got currently. Technical tracks need to be technical for the timing and line choice aspects...not so much for the navigation bike physics aspects although those certainly play a part...they shouldn't be foremost of the users mind.

The bike needs to back up faster and it just falls over way too easily. It shouldn't fall over because your going too slow because that doesn't happen in real life (unless you are a spode and magically forget how to put your feet down). Think about it...on Supercross tracks and most motocross tracks when the riders are riding the tracks for the first time they always roll everything...sometimes even stopping to look back at a particular section to scope out the lines, check the dirt consistancy and see how the lines might form over time. The point is...that if you want to call this a SIM...then it needs to be able to do whatever you can do in real life.

There needs to be forward and backward (lean) control over the bike as when riding in real life through the whoops you want your weight back as far as possible, or when in the air...you want to line the bike up with the landing grade...which is a crucial element to any realistic simulation of the sport.

I think the turning issue is a bit dodgy now for a couple of reasons...when you just let go of the turning button (or toggle) the wheel stops turning but the bike stays leaned. At least I think that's what happens. I spent quite a bit of time with the game today and really tryed to focus on figuring out how to control the bike. I must say that I like the stability set fairly low for the aspect of the bike being able to turn...but then of course the bike just falls over all the time. The dilema here is that you need the bike to turn tightly to ride a tight track...but then you go slow enough that the bike either falls over or whips around and heads back the way you came! lol

Anyway...I hope that you receive this well. I'm not trying to bash your brain-child here...I'm trying to help it. Having worked in the games industry my criticism is generally straight to the point and raw. I don't mean anything by it. Just trying to help out!

Post by **jlv** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:20 am

The editor was never really intended for end-users. I didn't expect so much interest in track editing so soon. But there was a lot of interest, so I just posted what I use so advanced users could get started right away.

This might help with the starting gate: http://mxsimulator.com/gate.html
Type in the coordinates for each end of the gate and it will output 41 gates. Cut and paste it into timing_gates and delete one off the end or the middle depending on what type of gate you want.

Wilson · Post by **Wilson** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:43 am

some really good points there,hopefully adding a lean control will allow for harder whoops.i really hope JLV will take these into consideration.

ElDiablo (Paul) · Post by **ElDiablo (Paul)** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:50 am

Ok something is off in the coordinates within the editor. When I use the link you posted (JLV) I get a LOT closer to where I want to be...but it's still off by quite a bit. The first problem that comes to mind is that there is nothing to help figure the height of the gate...I tried inputting that too and it doesn't spit out anything at all. I tried using this to put the gate on my track and the start in the game was on top of a jump peak a whole lane off (from a top-down view) to the east (right) of the funnel start.

Here's how I got the track so tight (maybe that is what is messing up the editor)...the scale is set to 1.0 (still at a 9 and using a 1025) but at that setting the track was still WAY too big. So I went into Photoshop and pasted the heightfield map into a 1025, created a new (black) layer and down-sampled the heightfield layer to 50% of it's original size. I did the same with the texture (shader) so the textures would line up. Everything DOES line up in the game perfectly...so I would have to guess that the problem here is that my track is a lot smaller than the game is used to and possibly then the coordinates are incorrect when put into practice on such a small area?

Just guessing of course as I really know sweet FA about your end of game creation. Anyway...as far as I can tell (can't really get an overhead perspective to tell for sure and I was unable to navigate well enough to check it out in-game...kept falling and never could really get over there) I THINK that the texture coordinates (from a top-down perspective) are fine north-to-south but off east-to-west. I don't recall which is X, Y or Z although I believe that Y is the elevation/height of a given point.

I hope that helps. If you want to check out what's going on with the track and need me to upload something for you just let me know what exactly you need. I'm happy to help.

Post by **jlv** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:59 pm

The starting gate heights are relative to the ground height, so you want to set them all to 0.

The coordinates for the starting gate are where the bike starts. The gate is three feet ahead of that.

ElDiablo (Paul) · Post by **ElDiablo (Paul)** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:39 pm

Yes but that doesn't explain the coordinates for the object placement being off in the editor though...you DID catch that right?

Post by **jlv** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:03 am

I double checked it before the last post. Looked good to me even at scale=1.

ElDiablo (Paul) · Post by **ElDiablo (Paul)** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:12 am

Here this will help illustrate it better. Follow this link (sorry the pic is too big to post in here) http://www.paulvalenti.com/PICS/DPG.png

The GREEN line is where I put the start gates spanning the length of the whole line (the width of the funnel start at that point). The YELLOW line is where it actually showed up in the game. This is after using the editor for the coords and plugging them into your utility that figures up the 41 gates. I just didn't copy the last gate coords since you told me that I needed to cut one out on either end or the middle. That should explain what's happening here...as you look at my pic (at the link above) the start gate moved over to the right, to the lane next to the start funnel. Hence the coordinates that the editor spits out either have to be off...OR the 1025 shader.ppm is being rendered in the editor incorrectly...making me think that I'm in the right place when I'm actually not. Either way it's an editor problem unless I missed something with the shader.ppm size. It's the same size as the terrain.png. So it SHOULD be all good from my end I think.

Also...I'm sure you probably noticed the RED line. That's there so I can ask a question and illustrate what I'm talking about. Is it possible now to place a finish gate in the game? If we look at the structure of this supercross (and almost every other one I've ever seen) the start gate is in a funnel and the finish gate is somewhere else on the track. I would like to be able to put a finish gate where the red line is...if possible.

Also...and I'm VERY interested in this. What is the format you are using for objects...and is it possible for us to create our own objects and place them in the game? I have yet to figure out how to place objects and trees in the editor...so if you have a link or want to explain that...I'd appreciate it.

I'm most interested to put some of my own objects and stuff into the game. If you don't have shadows done or planned for the editor...I can help you out with that. If you send me the meshes in 3DS format (or any other format that 3D Studio Max can open) then I can create shadow casting objects and put together a pack for you and (if you wish) anybody else that would like to do cast shadows in 3D Studio Max. I'll bet you that most of the people that are in this part of the forums would want to do that if there is no other way to do shadows.

I would be happy to render shadows for anybody that doesn't know how to do it. It only takes a few minutes and all that I need is a displacement map and texture map and the height settings from the editor.

Finally...for anybody interested I do my raw textures in Terragen. Then I doctor the hell out of them in Photoshop. There are 49 layers in the Photoshop PSD file for the textures in the above rendered pic. It's done in 3D Studio Max 3.1 with no supersampling. I do my displacement maps in Daylon Leveller 2.5 and all the map adjustments as well as the ruts were done in Leveller with no doctoring in Photoshop (you can do all of that in Leveller more simply than firing up Photoshop).

Anyway...there you have it. The textures DO line up perfectly in the game. So it's got to be the editor's coordinates that are off as you can plainly see. Hope that makes it clear.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Post by **jlv** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:13 am

Could you check the corners of the map in the editor? It should be 0,0 for NW, 1024,0 for NE, 0,1024 for SW and 1024,1024 for SE.

The lack of a finish banner in the blank track is an error on my part. Put this in "statues" for the finish banner:

Code: Select all

[500.0 0.0 500.0] 0.000000 @finishbanner.jm @finishbanner-repeat.png @finishbanner.shp

That finish banner might be a little wide for a supercross.

You'll need blender to export the models. I'll post the export script in a bit.

ElDiablo (Paul) · Post by **ElDiablo (Paul)** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:49 am

Ok it's not the editor it's the script that's at the link you gave me.

Here is what I put into the box and what it spit out. Note that the coordinates it spit out fall outside of the range that I gave the utility. That's GOT to be the problem!

Enter coordinates for left side of gate and right side e.g. "1000 1000 1080 1000"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 396.40 446.02 457.84 446.02
[396.4 0 446.02] 0
[400.4 0 446.02] 0
[404.4 0 446.02] 0
[408.4 0 446.02] 0
[412.4 0 446.02] 0
[416.4 0 446.02] 0
[420.4 0 446.02] 0
[424.4 0 446.02] 0
[428.4 0 446.02] 0
[432.4 0 446.02] 0
[436.4 0 446.02] 0
[440.4 0 446.02] 0
[444.4 0 446.02] 0
[448.4 0 446.02] 0
[452.4 0 446.02] 0
[456.4 0 446.02] 0
[460.4 0 446.02] 0
[464.4 0 446.02] 0
[468.4 0 446.02] 0
[472.4 0 446.02] 0
[476.4 0 446.02] 0
[480.4 0 446.02] 0
[484.4 0 446.02] 0
[488.4 0 446.02] 0
[492.4 0 446.02] 0
[496.4 0 446.02] 0
[500.4 0 446.02] 0
[504.4 0 446.02] 0
[508.4 0 446.02] 0
[512.4 0 446.02] 0
[516.4 0 446.02] 0
[520.4 0 446.02] 0
[524.4 0 446.02] 0
[528.4 0 446.02] 0
[532.4 0 446.02] 0
[536.4 0 446.02] 0
[540.4 0 446.02] 0
[544.4 0 446.02] 0
[548.4 0 446.02] 0
[552.4 0 446.02] 0
[556.4 0 446.02] 0

BoNalls · Post by **BoNalls** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:20 am

Paul all i did was go in the editor, move the cursor to where i want my first initial gate.... write down that coordinate..... then go into the gate file and change gate 1 to that coorinate (with the middle hieght number at 0).... then i messed with the last number in the sequence (which is direction) until i got it facing the correct way.... after that.... All you need to is seperate each successive one by 3 units (the gates will be about 8-12 inches apart, good realistic distance). that easy.

Post by **jlv** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:07 am

ElDiablo (Paul) wrote:Ok it's not the editor it's the script that's at the link you gave me.

Here is what I put into the box and what it spit out. Note that the coordinates it spit out fall outside of the range that I gave the utility. That's GOT to be the problem!

Ah I see. The script just uses the right side for the direction and spaces them apart by 4. You'll have to go with a 20 rider gate and pack them together tighter.

If you're feeling brave, you can change the spacing in line 37 of the script. Change the 4 to the spacing you want.

edit: I just updated the script. You can now optionally put a spacing after the coordinates.

> 396.40 446.02 457.84 446.02 3

Gate from [396.4 446.02] to [457.84 446.02] spaced 3 apart

[396.4 0 446.02] 0
[399.4 0 446.02] 0
[402.4 0 446.02] 0
[405.4 0 446.02] 0
[408.4 0 446.02] 0
[411.4 0 446.02] 0
[414.4 0 446.02] 0
[417.4 0 446.02] 0
[420.4 0 446.02] 0
[423.4 0 446.02] 0
[426.4 0 446.02] 0
[429.4 0 446.02] 0
[432.4 0 446.02] 0
[435.4 0 446.02] 0
[438.4 0 446.02] 0
[441.4 0 446.02] 0
[444.4 0 446.02] 0
[447.4 0 446.02] 0
[450.4 0 446.02] 0
[453.4 0 446.02] 0
[456.4 0 446.02] 0

ElDiablo (Paul) · Post by **ElDiablo (Paul)** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:19 pm

Well CRAP...I must be doing something wrong here cause the gate position hasn't changed?! I entered the 20 rider gate you posted above and deleted the original one and yet when I go into the game...the gate is still in the same place...AND I can't see the gates...the riders just sit there and no start to the game ever happens.

I am putting this code into the "timing_gates" text file. Is there someplace else that this stuff needs to be changed as well? The text file HAS changed...and yet the gate position in the game has NOT?!

What the heck is going on...anybody?

Actually...maybe I've messed up the file? I'm not sure why it's not changing the start position...might try to go back to the OLD (original) file and make my changes from there.

ElDiablo (Paul) · Post by **ElDiablo (Paul)** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:06 pm

Ok got it figured out. I had to put the original back in...started the game and saw that the gate had reverted to normal...exited the game...pasted the new coords in and saved and restarted the game...BAM!

Now the question is...can I figure out how to place the finish gate and how to place trees (more importantly how to place clones...if there is rotation available or if they all face the same direction...etc...).

But it would seem that I am well on my way now. Thanks for that!

Phathry25 · Post by **Phathry25** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:43 pm

I'm pretty sure the trees are "billboards" Meaning its a flat texture, that turns to constantly face towards you're position.