2020 Ride365.com Nationals Round 11 Fox Raceway

[aeffertz]

i dont get it, none of my objects are showing up, i put the object pack in my personal folder

Which object pack did you download?

[Atom6246]

Just wanted to drop my 2 cents on the track this week. I will have no problem doing this as long as I see it's worth my time. I'm not looking for every example I make to be implemented, but hopefully brought into consideration in the upcoming tracks.

Disclaimer, these are custom decals. It seems this year the decals have been subpar to previous years, and not in favor of erode visibility. Obj shadows on playdough versions with dark spots on the track, heavy contrast, and overlays (or shadows) with misleading shading. I'm no decal expert so I can't offer any solutions, but there does seem to be a formula out there that works, but not being used.

So the first thing I noticed when I got on the track that I didn't understand was the breaking bumps after the finish. They're way too close to each other resulting in inconsistency and non proper forming erode.
Ex.

As you may or may not be able to tell, they just flattened as the race went on. The bumps in the mechanics area had a different spacing and seemed to erode better, however IMO they were still just slightly too close together and added inconsistencies. Also the bumps carried directly into the ruts causing craters/volcano's to form.

I like how this turn slowed down, but still IMO are too close together and also formed volcano's.


Next issue I saw was rut shapes. I don't know the best way to describe it, but they felt like brackets ] .
Ex.

You would turn left into the rut, straighten out, then turn left to exit the rut. Which left a artificial feeling.
As well as this turn which IMO was probably the most 1 lined part of the track. The 2nd rut was not bad but spaced too far out to be a viable alternate line.


A rough example would be 2012 RedBud.

Notice how the rut entries are tight then leave a consistent bend that sweeps out around the whole corner?

A better example I think would be 2017 RedBud.

Given the terrain, I don't believe the 2012 method would work on that specific corner (can still be implemented in the corner after the off camber). But possibly splitting the ruts to allow creativity and less artificial slot car feeling would be beneficial to both racing and broadcasts.

Last thing I want to point out.

This corner after the RedBud table. I personally would prefer to see more than 2 ruts per corner. And tbf the outside wasn't viable. Not only was it the smallest rut/berm, it almost lead you off the track. So not only are you losing time going the long way around for a corner that is inside dominate (you have to setup quickly for the right hander after), but you also have to check up to make sure you don't go off the track.

WW had 4+ ruts in some corners and IMO it seems to work better for slowing down racing and less slot car feeling. Having more lines that are smaller and closer together felt better to race on because there wasn't just 1 main dominate line everyone hit lap after lap. Because it's technical to drop into the ruts so there wasn't as much high pace speed allowing other lines later in the race to be viable. The corners at WW with less than 4 ruts became one lined.

It's worth noting I and the silent majority and still very thankful for all the work that goes into these tracks, but with small adjustments I think we will see big improvements.

[supermottousa19]

stuff

+1

[ROSE822]

wawawa

so go back to premade 2017 tracks? sounds good to me

[Hi Im Skyqe]

Feedback

I agree with this. Good feedback.

wawawa

so go back to premade 2017 tracks? sounds good to me

Atom spent the time to put together a helpful post with screenshots for easy visualization on the feedback he gave.

You aren't doing anything but being negative posting in here. It is obvious you don't like erode, others are doing non erode series, go have fun.

[chaseb31]

I just want to counter to this point, it has some good point and also some not good points so I just wanna give some feedback, and this was one of my favorite tracks of the year erode and pre made wise.

So the first thing I noticed when I got on the track that I didn't understand was the breaking bumps after the finish. They're way too close to each other resulting in inconsistency and non proper forming erode.
Ex.


-(To close to together isn't a thing in motocross, if you watch a redbud go pro these guys are going through this section very very slow and catiously. Inconsistency and non proper forming erode isn't a thing either its a dirtbike track. The bumps seemed the most realistic and also made it for slower racing and line changing. Ex me and Haley starting left after the finish then going far right to the middle rut.. being very fast.)

As you may or may not be able to tell, they just flattened as the race went on. The bumps in the mechanics area had a different spacing and seemed to erode better, however IMO they were still just slightly too close together and added inconsistencies. Also the bumps carried directly into the ruts causing craters/volcano's to form.


-( Yes bumps had different spacing and eroded different there supposed to, also again if you watch redbud ruts form in the bumps, the "volcanoes" you say arent random those are actually made on real tracks from people using a lot of rear brake coming into a corner through bumps. Yes I do agree they were big no doubt, but it did give it a realistic race feel at the same time.)

I like how this turn slowed down, but still IMO are too close together and also formed volcano's.


-( If these are considered to close together then idk what to say haha, this was one of the most realistic slowed down sections I felt was on the track. Theres literally 3 big bumps coming into that corner so if thats to close together then.... The volcanos are big so I see youre point but they are realistic once again and line choice was sick in the motos, def have examples of going inside and passing, middle and passing and outside.)

Next issue I saw was rut shapes. I don't know the best way to describe it, but they felt like brackets ] .
Ex.

You would turn left into the rut, straighten out, then turn left to exit the rut. Which left a artificial feeling.
As well as this turn which IMO was probably the most 1 lined part of the track. The 2nd rut was not bad but spaced too far out to be a viable alternate line.

-( This example kinda got me going, like have you watched a race or redbud? "artificial feeling" ex below, the ruts on the outside of that are rounded off more like your talking about. What I think could be a better change or suggestion is the bump before it. Instead of ruts into it, it formed a wave rut kind of to where it wanted to launch you instead of keep you low and planted like it should.)

https://gyazo.com/713b85c6dedd71eb9acf8f76bc0ae94e

Just wanna say too like atom, really appreciate the tracks this year and stoked we are racing. If we didn't have y'all we wouldn't be here racing each week twice a week. So thank you track crew. Not here to bash or start drama I just feel theirs def different opinions out there and some seem to be towards realistic and some seem towards robotic slot car racing.

[Djlove04]

Feedback Part 2

+1

Very valid points. Its an ever changing dirtbike track. There is never going to be a perfect erode because its erode. Yes its inconsistent because its meant to slow the track down and make riders change their lines, but its not going to in every single corner just like irl. In some corners there is multiple lines, in others theres only one. Thats because its an ever changing dirtbike track once again.

(Not bashing ayetom, hes got some good points as well.)

[Hi Im Skyqe]

-(To close to together isn't a thing in motocross, if you watch a redbud go pro these guys are going through this section very very slow and catiously. Inconsistency and non proper forming erode isn't a thing either its a dirtbike track. The bumps seemed the most realistic and also made it for slower racing and line changing. Ex me and Haley starting left after the finish then going far right to the middle rut.. being very fast.)

I think you are missing what Atom is saying here Chase. In real life wheelbase and speed dictate the spacing of bumps as the bikes make the bumps. In MXS these bumps are made free hand so it is 100% possible for spacing to cause issues with the in game collisions creating erode. I don't think he is asking for it to be more high speed, I think he is asking for erode to build up the rough and slow down the track more.

If you remember, this same thing happened at Lakewood where the track flattened in spots. The low lateral scale bump setting is very finicky to bump size and distance as the setting has to be exaggerated heavily to make up for the low lateral scale. The reason for this specific setting was to open up line choice and get rid of the braking berms as I call them. If you remember in 2018 and the beginning of 2019 the 'berms' that would form half of the way down straightaways making sections extremely one lined and in some cases impossible to use other lines.

-( Yes bumps had different spacing and eroded different there supposed to, also again if you watch redbud ruts form in the bumps, the "volcanoes" you say arent random those are actually made on real tracks from people using a lot of rear brake coming into a corner through bumps. Yes I do agree they were big no doubt, but it did give it a realistic race feel at the same time.)

The volcano's can be somewhat realistic for a high braking corner I agree, but I think they are a bit exaggerated for higher speeds. It is pretty near impossible to fix them with erode tile in current state terrain resolution wise. The easy but also somewhat shitty way to fix this would be having the bumps taper off just before the rut starts to minimize them or have them earlier in the rut.

-( This example kinda got me going, like have you watched a race or redbud? "artificial feeling" ex below, the ruts on the outside of that are rounded off more like your talking about. What I think could be a better change or suggestion is the bump before it. Instead of ruts into it, it formed a wave rut kind of to where it wanted to launch you instead of keep you low and planted like it should.)

I think the feel was somewhat artificial with how the line was to jump into the rut because of the pace entering the turn landing from a big jump with lots of speed.

Not sure what you are referring to with 'wave rut' but maybe if there were ruts leading up to the roller to slow down the pace into the turn then have more ruts similar to the corner after the wall at WW to add more technicality and not as one lined?

Just wanna say too like atom, really appreciate the tracks this year and stoked we are racing. If we didn't have y'all we wouldn't be here racing each week twice a week. So thank you track crew. Not here to bash or start drama I just feel theirs def different opinions out there and some seem to be towards realistic and some seem towards robotic slot car racing.

100%

Just constructive feedback for moving forward to future rounds.

[Atom6246]

I just want to counter to this point, it has some good point and also some not good points

"It has some good points" but I'm going to make a counter point to everything you mention....
???

There is never going to be a perfect erode because its erode.

Ah, this approach. I'm not looking for "perfect erode", I'm suggesting to make changes that work better and not this stagnant 2 ruts a corner trend.

You guy's keep saying "He has some good point's" but you haven't mentioned 1 of them. What are my good points? I must say, I'm doing this to look for the most balanced racing. If we know solutions to fix unrealistic and beyond (better than real life) issues, why not use them? I will give you guys the benefit of the doubt with the bump spacing, but you cannot convince me the bumps after the finish was ok. That is the opposite of realistic. It got faster and less rough. I was hitting the inside every single lap of both motos. Whereas the bumps on the mechanic straight actually made me change my line so I'd rather have that spacing/size than after the finish.

The easy but also somewhat shitty way to fix this would be having the bumps taper off just before the rut starts to minimize them(volcanos)

+1

Not sure what you are referring to with 'wave rut' but maybe if there were ruts leading up to the roller to slow down the pace into the turn then have more ruts similar to the corner after the wall at WW to add more technicality and not as one lined?

Thats what I enjoyed about WW. You had to be precise and patient entering turns. And if you blew out of a rut, you had multiple different options to choose from without losing as much time as you would from 2 rut turns.

( This example kinda got me going, like have you watched a race

Nope, never seen a Motocross race in my life.

[cont.] or redbud? "artificial feeling" ex below,

Sure, the shape has similarities, but we have no creativity as an option in sim. So if you're going to get the shape right, might as well go the extra mile. Doesn't have to be qualifying creativity, but creativity to be viable in racing.

[ColtonD719]

This is the kind of thoughtful, specific feedback I like to see. Thank you, Atom and Chase.

[Jakob Hubbard]

The tracks in general just need to be slowed down in order to offer better racing. Right now it feels like everyone is just fighting against the track and not with each other because the fast line needs to be hit 3rd-4th gear tapped just to keep up. This causes a lot of crashes and leads to less battles, and on top of that you have the 1 MAYBE 2 lines per corner so everyone seems to be following each other when it comes to racing. Like Atom said, slot car racing where you wait for the person in front of you to make a mistake or crash.

Just my opinion on the matter.

[Jeremy150]

First post updated with Thunder Valley

[Atom6246]

Overall I think TV was a good improvement from RedBud. I don't know if my feedback was taken, but it feels like it was to a certain extent so thanks for keeping an open mind and listening to the community.

I really like how the track slowed down during the race. Bumps got bigger, and ruts got more technical. As a national should. Consistency and precision was rewarded.

So firstly this week is rut size and spacing. Rut shapes are definitely better so kudos there, but sizing and spacing could use some work IMO.
Ex.
Pay attention to the 2nd ruts, I will explain shortly.



Most of these ruts are very similar in size. I think it has a negative impact on racing. People will just take the shortest way around the track therefor rendering the outside lines useless. Possibly making the insides a little smaller then gradually gaining size the further out you go would be better. To a certain extent of course.
This turn....

Love the creativity here. Surprisingly inside vs outside was pretty balanced as well. Unfortunately the 2nd rut wasn't used that much to my knowledge, but I think that's from how close it is to the inside and how similar in size it was to the inside. A little bit more of a gap and scale the inside down just a tad I think it would have been great.
Back to the spacing, leaving more of a gap allows for minor errors, which is very beneficial for MXS racing. No one is perfect, especially in races. Most people will take the safer line so to allow more room for minor mistakes, will open up more lines.
Also the smaller "creative" ruts should be just a touch smaller. Erode will build it up if people take it.

Quick thing I also wanted to point out was the hill.

I think the lines are perfect here, but something with the new traction or slip function grabs your front wheel and lets your back end kick out very easily. So I think rolling it out some more would have helped that.

Some minor errors I noticed with outside rut exits were that they almost lead you off the track.
Ex.


In the first image, the inside is dominate because its very critical how you angle yourself for the hip jump. So I think tightening up the outside exits some more so that you have a straighter shot at the hip jump would have been beneficial. Because with how its setup now, you are losing time going wide, and losing more time checking up for the hip jump. Granted, its good the inside was rougher but overall was still better than all the cons from the outside. Second image, inside was rougher also but outside has similar size ruts so not much to gain, mostly time to lose from going wide before a drop off. You can also scrub better down the drop from the inside so IMO a fatter outside berm would have been good.

And that reminds me, where are the berms? I'm not sure if their was none in real life, but I feel like in some spots (after the Roczen scrub table, switchback, uphill rollers, etc) it would have made for better racing. Ik the outside was dominate after the uphill rollers past few years so obviously nothing that gnarly but I feel like something to bank off of to hold people on the track is necessary.

The Tomac hill.

I personally would have liked to seen some more roughness and possibly straight entry ruts. Just more elements to slow it down.
Example 2019 Unadilla for the straight entry ruts.


And last but not least..


Dont know what to call these, but I'm not a huge fan of them. As mentioned in the RedBud post, I think flattening out/smoothing out rough before ruts is the best solution to volcano's and transitions.

Thank's for all the work rF. Excited to see the continued development.

[Haberfield24]

yes

Great points, track was awesome for racing this week imo. As Atom said the spacing and angles of some of the ruts ruled out a few lines but other then that it was a massive improvement from last week. Loved the premade, you could have fun on the track without having to be on the last lap of a quali session. That was a breath of fresh air compared to the past few years of being frustrated when you have to play in prime time (2-4am for me).

[BcMxKx37]

yes

Great points, track was awesome for racing this week imo. As Atom said the spacing and angles of some of the ruts ruled out a few lines but other then that it was a massive improvement from last week. Loved the premade, you could have fun on the track without having to be on the last lap of a quali session. That was a breath of fresh air compared to the past few years of being frustrated when you have to play in prime time (2-4am for me).

thunder valley was sick, i think the best option might be to just remove a rut so there are three viable lines instead of 4 ruts where only 2 are used