Political Debate Thread

[TM_Infidel]

When the obvious is too difficult to fathom all hope is lost for innocent lambs misled.

[m121c]

First and foremost, thank you. You are the only one here defending Trump with an explanation and I appreciate it. Even if we aren't going to change each other's minds on subjects, having some sort of base frame of mind to the decision is helpful. I don't like to comment on this thread and even that one I did I wasn't thrilled with myself for doing so. Mostly because I don't want to sound like the cheerleader behind JLV who is actually making points. Since you took the time to write all that I'll give back.

Thank you as well; even if we can't change each others minds, surely there might be some common ground we share and I always enjoy getting to hear different perspectives.

[m121c]

Posted by mistake, was still typing.

I will keep this a bit shorter (hopefully), but I do appreciate your response to my thoughts, so I want to do the same for yours.

To your first point, I'm going to contradict myself from earlier, but I agree with you. I think it goes back to the tribal-like partisanship, and I am guilty of getting swept up in that from time to time. High profile democrats and the media claim all of this as a Biden administration win saving America from COVID. That is just as silly as saying Trump himself is directly responsible for the vaccine delivery as well. We can get down into the policies, deregulations, funding, etc. that led to the vaccine, it's distribution, etc. and put some tallies on the table for the Trump administration and the Biden administration.

Disclaimer about media (skip if you like): I reference the word "media" as in the left-biased mainstream media. You mention conservative media, and by no means do I want to insinuate right-biased media does not exist. It definitely does, just as extreme as the left as well. However, the reason I reference "media" as a generalize left-biased information source is because the 5/6 large conglomerate media organizations are your left-biased news/entertainment. I can post a graphic if that is interesting to anyone... but really only 1 out of 6 is your Fox News, New York Post, etc. Really, a lot of the right-biased news is dominated by independent content creators on Youtube or podcasts. Then there is the whole gate-keepers of information that is social media.. and well we have discussed that a lot in here.

And to your following points, not to group them, but generally I see the little differences we have as different lived experiences. I agree with a lot of what you say, but one thing I wan to highlight specifically:

I know the CDC did put out a mandate for masks but the hostile challenges of people not wearing a mask into places that clearly stated it was required to enter was just so weird to witness.

I had a couple of people within my family that were this way. I do think this is wrong, it's really a matter of respect. If a private business does not want you to so much as chew gum in their store; I'm on board. My trouble are in areas of school boards for example, but that is whole different discussion.

Overall, I think we see the crazies on both sides and that is what we react to, and then we couple that with what our lived experiences. Really, I think there just needs to be respect of both perspectives and to have discussion like this. I think it is very wrong for people to be aggressive, dismissive, etc. of people who are more scared of the virus and/or been vaccinated. I think the same for the other way around as well. I will never understand people like the lady that yelled "coward" at you, or those who play mask police 24/7.

Lastly, thanks again for this honest discussion Puma. Also, condolences to you and your family, I don't know your relationship you had with your grandfather, but grandparents are a special thing.

[jlv]

Sorry to hear about your grandfather Puma. Was that some kind of hospital screw up? It sounds like something you'd expect them to be on top of when he's hospitalized.

[Pumaxcs]

Overall, I think we see the crazies on both sides and that is what we react to, and then we couple that with what our lived experiences. Really, I think there just needs to be respect of both perspectives and to have discussion like this. I think it is very wrong for people to be aggressive, dismissive, etc. of people who are more scared of the virus and/or been vaccinated. I think the same for the other way around as well. I will never understand people like the lady that yelled "coward" at you, or those who play mask police 24/7.

Thanks and I ultimately agree. By far the worst thing to come of politics becoming so mainstream talking point is the generalizations. If someone claims they support Republicans or someone supports Democrats you immediately formulate all these conclusions on their stance based on so little information. Things like this help, because it sounds like we agree on the conclusion on most things around the vaccine/virus but got there from totally different perspectives.

I don't hate the term "The Media" I just think its use is funny, especially when ran by Fox. For the reasons you stated, there are not many conservative sources in corporate spaces so of course their viewer base will be concentrated, unlike other networks where they may have a split viewer base. By the numbers, they are the largest "mainstream media" broadcaster, and will sometimes brag that their shows are bringing more views than its competitors with CNN and MSNBC. While that line is more so a subtle hint to advertisers than anything, I always have a giggle when they mention "mainstream media" because I don't see how they can't include themselves when they claim to be the largest.

Fun story from today in the office about the mask mandates. Older guy was complaining that most restaurants around here are fully open but they went to Applebee's and had to wait 1.5 hours because they haven't changed their policy from 25% capacity. I don't even know where to start here guy. You waited an hour and a half for Applebee's to start (why?), knowing there were other options. You did nothing to change them like lol.

Sorry to hear about your grandfather Puma. Was that some kind of hospital screw up? It sounds like something you'd expect them to be on top of when he's hospitalized.

Thanks to both for that. He was already in a home for worsening Alzheimers so no one was truly caught off guard, even it was unrelated in the end. It was something caused by the hospital, most likely with his catheter while bedridden but he was mentally and physically weak to begin with so if it wasn't one thing would've been another I guess.

I shared that more so for the actions my dad had. I get that in grief you do strange things but I can't ever imagine my first thought being to defend a person I have never met for a performance review.

[DBRider251]

While upsetting sure, the part that hurt more was later hearing my dad talking to the nurses to make sure his death papers didn't say he died of Covid because he didn't want his Dad to be a statistic against Trump.

Not going against any point, just making a point for people who may not know. I would say you could explain it to your dad, but I have a mom who is the same way.

The thing a lot of people miss about something like this is simple. If someone had COVID and died for other reasons, they’re legally supposed to count them as a COVID death because of the way natural disaster deaths work. With COVID being declared a natural disaster, it’s just how it goes.

Example: Someone is outside working on a ladder and has a heart attack and dies as a tornado comes through. They’re legally counted in the tornado death because it happened during the natural disaster. It has something to do with the possibility, not the direct result iirc.

[Ddavis]

My family really wants me to get the vaccine, but I already had covid and it didn't really effect me (slight cough, that's it). From my understanding, the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting covid, it just "limits" the effects. It doesn't actually lower your chances of getting it (from what I've heard/read). Do any of you guys feel the same way? I think creating a vaccine for a virus in less than a year when scientists still haven't found a vaccine for other deadly diseases makes me skeptical of the whole thing, and I already think covid was created in a lab in China and wasn't formed naturally.

[Racers52]

My family really wants me to get the vaccine, but I already had covid and it didn't really effect me (slight cough, that's it). From my understanding, the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting covid, it just "limits" the effects. It doesn't actually lower your chances of getting it (from what I've heard/read). Do any of you guys feel the same way? I think creating a vaccine for a virus in less than a year when scientists still haven't found a vaccine for other deadly diseases makes me skeptical of the whole thing, and I already think covid was created in a lab in China and wasn't formed naturally.

Im not a licensed doctor and or health care provider so of course take this information with some caution and proceed as you think necessary.

I think a vaccine is a great option if you have a family that has pre-existing health conditions and or just isn't in the best of shape, (i.e physically fit, diet choices, proper sleep.) To my knowledge (which might be limited in comparison to a real health professional) the vaccine will help your immune system recognize the binding protein spikes on the virus. This recognition of the spike protein on the virus is similar to a fire alarm but for your body's immune system, allowing a proper immune response before the virus starts replicating uncontrollably and thus preventing a more serious illness.

The problem with viruses is that they are very clever in a sense because as they continue to infect the population, random mutations in the genome of the virus arise. Often many mutant variants die off, but due to natural selection the stronger, more infectious mutants arise. This is what we are seeing now with variants like Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta.

I have not seen enough studies to form a complete opinion on the effectiveness of the current COVID-19 vaccines against the varients but my assumption is that having the base vaccine could help your body recognize base genomic data from the original virus and possibly prevent the infection from taking hold in the first place (i.e you could be infected with a new variant but your body might be able to fight it off before it becomes a serious issue.)

In conclusion and in my opinion, it is likely that we will continue to see new COVID-19 vaccine rollouts in the coming years, very similar to flu vaccines because both Sars-cov-2 and Influenza (Flu) mutate as they infect the population and change "identities" to stay one step ahead of your immune system. They might even come in the same shot at some point, who knows....

Conclusion PT2
Luckily if you still don't want to get the vaccine, there are things that generally speaking are well supported in the scientific community and health community that you can do directly to help support and strengthen your immune system and prevent infections.

- Living an active lifestyle and exercising for at least 60-90min a day.

- Eating a well-rounded diet/taking vitamins for nutrient deficiencies. (A vast majority of the US population is deficient in Vitamin D which plays a key role in immune system regulation and support.)

- Getting enough sleep to help maintain and support a healthy immune system.

These basic principles are often overlooked by many people today and similar to what I have said in a previous post in this thread, it is a real wake up for people not taking care of themselves if they are able-bodied and an opportunity for the public to re-assess these large health institutions that really don't encourage basic health for the public.

Political Debate Conclusion
I look down on the fact that we are discussing respiratory viruses in the political debate thread but that's the unfortunate state of our politics nowadays. It "infects" and leeches over into every aspect of our lives. Maybe we need a vaccine for the career politicians that don't honestly represent the people that elected them(?).... and we should always encourage non-bias investigation into the origins of public health crises to learn and hopefully prevent future events of this magnitude.

[TM_Infidel]

[TeamHavocRacing]

I think it's fantastic irony that the people holding out against safe practices for political or religious reasons are the ones who will ultimately pay the price. I also think we (Earth) could've really benefited if the mortality rate was over half. More like 66%. Maybe next time. That's the only way we're gonna have a livable planet moving forward.

[m121c]

I think it's fantastic irony that the people holding out against safe practices for political or religious reasons are the ones who will ultimately pay the price. I also think we (Earth) could've really benefited if the mortality rate was over half. More like 66%. Maybe next time. That's the only way we're gonna have a livable planet moving forward.

Wow. It's been interesting watching you slowly unravel your true thoughts. You will get your panties in a wad over a Trump tweet and then say shit like that? Amazing, yet scary how evil and tone-deaf you are to your own crazy. Dude, there are people here who have lost loved ones to the virus, and you are throwing around you wish it were more people?

You should practice what you preach and shut your electricity off. Better for the Earth, and better for us, that way we don't have read your nonsense.

It was civil in here for a page at least.

[TeamHavocRacing]

However, you think without a major extinction event somehow, miraculously all of the fuel burning will just cease? "Drill baby! Drill!" I'm sure you still argue against man-made climate change which we're well past now. While you think I'm crazy, don't you believe that the world was made in 7 days about 6000 years ago? How about rapture? Saved from all of the stinky hippies on judgment day? What do you get on arrival? 72 virgins?

[Racers52]

You wished death on 66% of people that developed COVID-19. You are a sick and bitter human.

[TeamHavocRacing]

I would be willing to take my chances on being part of that relief. Do any of you have those balls? Just keep forging ahead. It'll be ok. God will beam you up just in time. Go out and roll coal on some liberals just to spite me.

[Jrife548]

I would be willing to take my chances on being part of that relief. Do any of you have those balls? Just keep forging ahead. It'll be ok. God will beam you up just in time. Go out and roll coal on some liberals just to spite me.

He's out of it. Totally gone