2 Strokes... Will They Be Back?

[lluks252]

Are they in the dealers? I thought I read that they were trying to sell out the 09's before they brought out the 10's. They're supposed to have a huge amount of 09 leftovers and are afraid they won't be able to sell them once the 2010 models are out.

I thought that was every japanese motorcycle company. The thing that has always interested me is, how can one dealer(Abernathy Cycles in Union City, TN) sell a '09 YZ250F BRAND NEW for $4,894 OTD and my local dealer won't let one go for less than $6,500 plus freight and shipping costs. Is it because that particular dealer sells a shit ton of bikes or is it that they are making the very minimum but moving alot of product? I asked my local dealer and they got extremely butt hurt which lead into an argument b/c he started talking out of his ass. Like someone said, 4 strokes are going to make the companies more money, more moving parts which equal more breakdowns. Also, how much more technology can they put into 2 strokes? They've only been doing R&D for 30+ years on them.

[yzmxer608]

250C here in WI is always the biggest class of the day. All 4 Strokes baby!..

I don't know if they'll come back, but I know there a dam sight easier to start than my crf!

LOL. Take care of your CRF and it will start first kick everytime. Mine do. Even my race bike, 1 kick everytime, even on the ice this weekend.

4-strokes DON'T brake more often, they do require more attention though. If you treat your 4-stroke maintenance like you do on a two stroke (none for most people) then you're going to have issues. My brother and I both go new bikes in 2007, and guess what, after doing proper maintenance for the past 3 years neither of our bikes have broken down, not once. I freshened mine up this summer and that's the only money I've stuck into it. I'd like to see you get two years out of a 250 2-stroke top end....

In conclusion, 2-strokes are for rednecks who can't be bothered with taking care of something.... YEEHAW!!!!

Yeah, they are pretty much the same maintenance, I should have said they are simpler. There are more things to worry about on a 4-stroke (pretty much the valves are just added)

[DJ99X]

Just got the latest ADB. They did a test between a YZ144, CRF250 and 250SX, due to the fact that 250 two-strokes may be able to race against 250Fs here next year. They did a dyno reading for all the bikes, and the 250SX clearly had the most power, but it peaked quite early and its limit was like 9000 RPM. All three riders in the test chose the 250F as the bike they would race, as the power was so much smoother, and the power lasted right through the rev range. All three riders were about 2 seconds a lap faster on the 250F, than the 144 and 250, which both had very close times. The funnest bike out of the three was the 144.

They also did a cost analysis on the bikes, based on a 50hr life. The 250F obviously had the greater cost, but really, for the average rider, the 250F will last ages if looked after properly. We've only done one top end rebuild on our 2005 YZ250F in the 5 years we have owned it, and that was last year.

If anyone wants me to scan the article, let me know and I'll upload it. Was a pretty good read.

[Phathry25]

Transworld did the same type of thing with Jason Lawrence and Travis Baker. There's a video on their site. Faster on 250r, both would race the 250f though.

[jlv]

They also did a cost analysis on the bikes, based on a 50hr life. The 250F obviously had the greater cost, but really, for the average rider, the 250F will last ages if looked after properly. We've only done one top end rebuild on our 2005 YZ250F in the 5 years we have owned it, and that was last year.

I think that's where they get the bad rap. People treat them like a Honda XR when it's a 250 that's revving higher than a 125. Combine the high revs with the extra short piston skirt and it means you have to keep the piston clearance smaller than the equivalent 2s. As the clearance increases, it puts even more force on the piston skirt which makes it wear even faster and eventually have a catastrophic failure when the force gets high enough to break the piston. This won't happen if you maintain it half as well as you maintain a 2s, but since the bike will run pretty well until it explodes, people will run them until they explode...

[Sweendoggy]

...rethinking...

2 strokes will come back (be the ideal choice for motocross) when they have the clear advantage. How will you know what has the advantage? Look to the race teams spending millions of dollars so their guy can win. Maybe the factory teams were forced to use the 4 strokes (doubt it), but do you think all the privateers and teams like "j-law racing" who don't have a manufacture sponsor would go with a 4 stroke if they thought the 2 stroke had the edge? That means that when Pro motocross/supercross starts to use 2 strokes again, then they will become the bike of choice again. Will 2 strokes die out altogether? Doubt it. I hope they are always there for choice, because to me they make REALLY fun trail bikes, and are fun track bikes for sure, the 4 strokes just have the edge over them for most riders.

I do still believe that many industry leaders would rather let 2 strokes die than risk them becoming more popular than 4 strokes again...Not even just the bike companies, but even say....pro circuit....Sure the 4 stroke parts/silencers and so on cost more to make/labor and so on, but really? Look at price differences on 4 stroke exhaust systems....engine rebuilding? Lets not forget that engine builders now get to charge for valve shimming...and if your engine blows up, might as well get a new one...I wasn't around in motocross for THAT long before the 4 stroke era (about 99 or so) but from what I can tell, since the 4 stroke take over, the MX industry has rapidly expanded with products/companies/services. That may have happened anyway due to growing popularity.

I'm not saying the industry is corrupt, but they are business men. Why would you want to give up all that extra business you are making? I don't think anyone would sabotage the 2 strokes, but rather not push for them.

1 last thing....

They should make a rule that JS7 MUST ride a 125 2 stroke, cause DAMN WAS HE AMAZING ON IT! I don't care if he loses, watching him man handle that thing was awesome.

[Sweendoggy]

Phathry25

2 strokes are also for broke college students....

Also about your 2 stroke top end thing....

it's like 100 bucks and maybe an hour to rebuild my top end for me so not getting 2 years out of it is no big....and you would be surprise how much my bike trucks through! Thing is a friggen beast! The yzf250 i have however (actually my friends, but I am borrowing it for like 3 years), temperamental as EFFFF. Thats just my experience, and I also take good care of my bikes (when money allows )

Also there is nothing like passing Richie Rich on his brand new 4 stroke with custom graphics with his biggest fan stopwatch holding dad watching, on my old, beat up, clapped out, redneck, 2 stroke, smoke pukin dirt cYclllll YEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAA

[JETZcorp]

The 2T will only come back when the rules are changed to equal-displacement. Let's face it, it takes a damn good rider to beat a 450F using a 250. From a philosophical viewpoint, I think they should set a displacement limit, and then the winner will be whomever can create the best bike with it. If your race bike weighs 15lbs more and makes 10hp less than the competition using the same displacement, I'm sorry, you've just got the inferior technology. The rules as they stand now are there to try and make things "fair" between 2T and 4T. Why? That's like the US Government handing out gigantic subsidies to any railroad running steam engines, because it wants to make the market "fair" for steam and diesel locomotives. The 4T was a worse bike when BSA left motocross, and the 4T is probably a worse bike today. It's only winning because it's gotten a big, legislative bailout from the AMA. If you think your 4T is better than the other guy's 2T, go out there and take your best shot at kicking his ass. If you can't do it, then either make your bike faster, or buy one like his. Those are the legitimate, sportsmanlike choices. Running to the AMA screaming "Daddy, daddy, he beat my thumper, make him use a smaller bike!" is not the way to go about it.

Unfortunately, it's already been done. At this point, when a 450F beats a 250, it's held up as evidence that the 4T is better. What it really means, though, is that the 4T is more than half as good. That's the message we 2T guys get from the slanted rules. Are they afraid to challenge the 2T on a level playing field? Are they compensating for something? The big 4T's are like body builders. Built up big and manly on the outside, but when you take its trucks off it's Hello Mr. Squiggly. I propose we return to straight 125, 250, and 500 classes. If you don't have the balls to compete, someone who does is going to pass you on the outside and never look back.

[DJ99X]

If your race bike weighs 15lbs more and makes 10hp less than the competition using the same displacement, I'm sorry, you've just got the inferior technology

I'm not sure whether you read my post, but they just did a comparison between both a 250F and a 250 in a magazine over here. All three testers preferred the 250F, and all three testers were about 2 seconds a lap faster on it. 2-strokes produce alot of power, but the shape of the curve is rubbish compared to a 250F's

[jlv]

Transworld did the same thing with Jason Lawrence and he was faster on the 2 stroke.

The 2T will only come back when the rules are changed to equal-displacement.

I disagree. If you made a bike with a continuously variable transmission, a peaky two stroke would be better even with half the displacement.

BTW, I bet you'll like this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8hJWKIVNs

[NIKK SPILLANE #244]

Anyone seen the Service Honda bikes?
they put cr 500 and cr 250 motors and shit in the new shaped honda,
same with kawasaki, they do kx500 kx 250 in the new shape kawasaki.
they even do the monster energy bike, with kx 500 motor looks pretty sweet.
you can buy them as well

heres the link to there site.

http://www.servicehonda.com/

[JETZcorp]

Sure, if you've got a peaky two-stroke, then you're going to have some problems. But who says a two-stroke has to be peaky? Maico was renowned for having a smooth powerband that pulls right from the bottom and continues to the top. They may not have had the absolute max power of a Japanese 2T, but that's because the Japanese bikes were tuned to produce big, impressive numbers for magazine readers to look at. That's also part of why they were so much slower than the German bike. Everyone's so used to the idea that a 2T has a crazy, unusable powerband that they've forgotten that it doesn't have to be that way, unless your're forcing the poor thing to compete against a bike twice its size. No wonder the new bikes are tuned for an absolute maximum horsepower number! Look at the difference in pistons, for God's sake!



If these were equalized, it would be reasonable to make a proper, smooth two-stroke with some good flywheel weight and a usable powerband. And while the 250F beat the 250 in that test (which shows that they should be put on equal terms more than anything, by the way) there was another test in which the Service Honda KX500AF destroyed the lap times of a KX450F, much to the surprise of the veteran 450F rider doing the test. Of course, to keep the advertisers happy, he still "prefers the 450F" even though the numbers show he was 3sec a lap down on the 4T.

It's all fine and good to argue about which bike is better, but until they're put on equal terms in the races, it doesn't matter. The bike that cheats is always going to win, whether the design is better or not. If the 4T really is better, which a lot of riders seem to believe, it should be able to stand up in competition on an equal-displacement basis. Until you give it that vote of confidence, you might as well be saying the 2T is faster. What's there to be afraid of if the 4T is better after all? Let's decide the answer to this question on the track, and not in the AMA board meetings.

[jlv]

I think you missed the point. If your transmission is a CVT, there is no problem with peaky. The CVT can put the bike at 12,000 RPM all the time. Low end power is irrelevant since the transmission always provides the correct ratio to put the motor at its power peak.

I've tried putting a CVT in MX Simulator just for fun before and it was devastatingly fast. You would be beating your old lap record and it wouldn't even feel fast since the motor RPM doesn't change. I know MX Sim isn't perfectly accurate, but it's close enough that I'd bet on a CVT motocross bike being a winner.

[DJ99X]

Wow, I'd love to have a go at such a bike. In saying that, it would probably be boring, sorta like an automatic car. But then again, its at peak power all the time, unlike an auto, so it probably wouldnt lose tis thrill factor

[cpt_Slow]

It would be just like riding an electric bike. Where would they stand in the rulebook?