Political Debate Thread

I've heard conversation coming out of animal pens that is more intelligent than what is going on in here.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

With omicron variant coming, the more you wait, the worse it gets. :evil:
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:31 am With omicron variant coming, the more you wait, the worse it gets. :evil:
There is no factual evidence to show Omicron is anything more than mild. You are doing nothing more but buying into the sensationalism. We are so worried about it, Biden has stopped travel from several African countries but not the European ones where it is present. Talk about a racist xenophobic fascist!
Boblob801 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:31 pm Do you guys think Mason got his vaccine and died :shock: :shock: He's been gone awhile
American holiday.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am It's very broad. Some would draw a conclusion a lot sooner than others. It would seem the vast majority of people who specialize in this field have drawn their conclusion. Which would state it isn't experimental. The same can be said with the current scale it's being "experimented" on. Where would you draw the conclusion? As it stands you should be able to give me a date given that most of the world's population is undertaking this experiment.
If everyone had this mindset you wouldn't have a handheld supercomputer or uncovered quantum physics. My question is, has every expert drawn their conclusion (and as the story goes... they are in favor)? Or is it just the ones in a position for you to hear their conclusion? The local hospitals (where I grew up anyway) who had to layoff numerous doctors, surgeons, and medical staff must not have had the right educated experts. We are arguing 2 things at once here, we are talking about government power/policy, and we are talking about the vaccine itself. You can both be pro-vax and anti-mandate. Saying you have to be an expert in anything to be qualified enough to have a voice is the equivalent to saying you don't have a voice because the of your skin tone or genitalia.

At the very least I would say this would be less of experiment once the long-term studies in various areas (fertility for example) are completed, reported, and available. That goes for traditional and MRNA vaccines. If I remember from the FDA literature, this won't start to happen until 2023 and ending in 2025 (for Pfizer at least).
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am The point of govt is to provide socialist services (police, fire, schooling, roads, parks etc) and nanny society (if society says, we don't like murder and theft, govt has to stop it etc). The only way I could agree with you is if it was put to vote and the majority vote on, no mandate. At the end of the day, the average person isn't smart enough to do what's right for them. America is the perfect example, being obese isn't good for you, yet there you (USA) are, breaking records. There are also situations where the majority of you would vote against something even though in reality, it is in your best interest. A good example is, I'm sure most people would vote on a tax decrease, it would be bad. I mean last I checked, meth was illegal, should that not be a personal choice? I don't think so myself. There are lines, they haven't crossed it here.
There are a lot of individual thoughts in this chunk. Im going to just sum up my answer and say that this is what freedom is. There are a ton of things people do that are not in their best interest, many of which can ruin lives. Unfortunately, and fortunately, that is freedom. As a big of an advocate I am for personal well being (and a majority of Americans are not), it should absolutely not be the governments business. Murder is a different, that is not nannying society, that is setting the line of what is your right and what is not your right, then setting punishments for that. It is not a persons right to take the life of another. Government nanny is telling you what you can eat, where you can go, how you should think, what can be taught, what can be said, etc. We most definitely don't get it right every time, and there is most definitely some nanny-ing here in the U.S. However, I am in favor for less of a nanny state not more. Implementing more nanny laws needs to be carefully evaluated and must meet extraordinary circumstances.

Majority vote is silly. That would be mob rule, which in itself is dangerous. Imagine mob rule in America right now. It isn't a good idea and never will be.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am I don't choose to take a shit, if it was up to me, I'd never eat. It's such a pain having to provide sustenance. It's just inefficient.
You don't need to take back the injection, it'll be gone after a while (hence the need for boosters)(I want to note, I'm not necessarily on board with getting yearly boosters). Can you humor me? What drugs have delayed effects of more than a few years?
Zantac. Ibuprofen. It's not about the physical presence of the drug itself being in your system, it's the resultant of that drug being in your system. Idk if you were civil engineering in school, but if you were, you maybe don't have experience just how delicate complex systems are. If you do have some study involving complex system analysis, them I am sure you are aware of this.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am I don't really disagree, as bad as it sounds. These people are overheads in my country. The vast majority of people dying of the virus need govt aid to survive. But at the end of the day, there are 2 ways to value human life, the engineer way (this person will contribute x value to society. If they die, it'll cost x amount to scoop them up etc. I think in nz the value is around 4million or something). And the other way, this persons a human they should have the right to live or something. Completely opinion-based, so I'm not going to get into it. Honestly, I would be fine with everyone getting a vaccine and then letting covid run rampant (I think that's what NZ is transitioning into).
I don't really get why it has to be everyone, why do you want it to be everyone? What is your ideal outcome to that? Do you think it will stop C19 in it's tracks? I'm trying to understand as to why you think everyone should, or needs, to have a single round of vaccination.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am I don't think there is a difference. Every time a vaccine comes out it's the same shit. "I'm not against vaccines, just this one". "Look at all the adverse reactions". "Even doctors are against it". Honestly, it's always the same shit, I'm yet to hear something new. Same shit, different vaccine.
Many arguments might be the same (although I would not agree it is all), but the situation is different. I would have the same argument about mandates if it were the flu shot. Just because the argument is similar to others in history, doesn't make it anymore wrong or right.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am I'm unsure what type of engineer you are but I'll tell you this now, remove the idea of individualism. It's stupid, it's what people use to make you feel special. When you come to design or manage things for stakeholders you'll quickly find you need to group them. No way you'll please everyone, don't get caught up in the detail. No one else does. How many times have you been to a store and it's laid out to suit your individual needs? It's not, they have a target group and they meet the common denominator. Save yourself some stress and get on board.
I meant more individualism in a persons autonomy, thinking, and from a government perspective. It is not to say I believe in individualism as a blanket concept.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am
There are a ton of college educated "intellectuals" that are just as vulnerable to dangerous ideas as those who are not. We could have a whole conversation of what make up an intellectual really.
Not a chance, I could pull stats that show this to be bullshit but it's like saying gravity isn't real, it'd be a waste of time to argue it.
If they can't do primary school mathematics, I don't count them as intellectuals (aka the majority of anti-covid vax I've talked to). Seriously, who can't figure out that 2+2x10 doesn't equal 40.
I put intellectual in quotes, because there is most definitely folks with extensive education that are still vulnerable to dangerous ideas that I would not characteristic as "intellectuals". That is just my personal feelings though. An intellectual is one which can decouple many of the human factors that tie in to cognitive processes; you can still have someone with years of higher level education that can go along with the crowd brainlessly. If anything, C19 has proven this multiple times over. Not sure what stats could be pulled to make this bullshit. Are you saying in no way can an educated person be vulnerable to mob rule or dangerous ideas? Just turn on American corporate news for a night.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am That's my point. When you do risk assessment it's simple, you don't pick the option where you're fucked no matter what. You pick the one with the best chances. And that's putting on your wool coat, getting your vaccine, and coming next to me to eat grass and baa. (I joke) But seriously, you have almost nothing to lose, there's a 1 in multiple million chance something bad will happen vs not getting it and being a reject of society.
If being assimilated into society is brainlessly getting in line for what the government tells me, Im okay being on the edge. It is your opinion that my choice is being fucked no matter what, that is not based in fact. This virus is not a certain "fucked" ending for a great number of people, especially those who would fit in a general healthy profile. Add to the equation that we now have therapeutics to help speed up the natural fight of the virus while minimizing the severity of symptoms. Does any part of you think there is more to this, such as money? Power? When a mandate ignores natural immunity, we are no longer in the relm of reason, it is in the relm of agenda.

I still think you are making a mistake on being so certain the risk is so minimal. That is not to say the probability is high an adverse reaction or long-term effect will be experienced, it's just to say the risk of such an event (to me) is high due to the lack of study and culture around such a subject.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am -It needs to be mandated because people can't make the right decisions for themselves. (It's also likely the majority would want this)
Who gets to decide what is right and what isn't? The government is qualified for that decision? Just because a majority want something that makes it okay? I would speculate to say a majority of people would want many things that they have no understanding of how it would effect them on the back end. If we were actually transparent about those things and people could understand them then you might have a little more of argument. However, you seem to have little trust in individuals to know their left from their right hand... so it is weird you trust the majority.
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am -It doesn't really matter if the circumstances aren't close, the point stands that you're wrong. The govt didn't end up with stupid powers from mandating back then and they're not going to this time either. It's a poor argument, don't use it.
It absolutely matters.

They didn't? Millions are facing losing their livelihoods because they have uncertainty due to massive failures of the government. Just because it has happened 100 years ago doesn't make it right now (or then). They had drastic reasons for it 100 years ago, if they want to use that power again we should absolutely make sure we at least meet that criteria. If not, it makes that level of power that much more accessible. Not to mention the government powers you speak of are not even the powers that are trying to be implemented now (atleast in the US case)
Boblob801 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 am At the end of the day just get it, nothings going to happen. I'll suck your ghost dick if it does.
Although I welcome you to comment on everything I posted above, I get we are getting in a pretty deep depth of conversation. If you were to comment on anything let it be this; I want to investigate this thinking.

Why should I just get it? What is your rationale? What utility do I get out of it? What utility does society get out of it? What level of uncertainty do you have that nothing will happen to me versus getting the virus? This still really isn't clear to me.

You argument of "this is no big deal just get it" just isn't enough, especially if you are trying to say that this should be a government mandate.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Racers52 »

Pharma uses taxpayer dollars for R&D for a vaccine and then files patents so that other companies and other countries cant replicate it.

Control the supply, control the cost.

The reality of respiratory infections is that if the entire world population simultaneously isn't vaccinated or gains natural immunity, the virus will continue to mutate and proliferate. That is, in the end, the entire goal of a virus.

If sars-cov2 had a high mortality rate and r0 value then government intervention would be justified as the supreme court has ruled in the past, but this is not the case. Mandates, vaccine passports, lockdowns, etc are all just a power grab.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

m121c wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:42 pmNo Quote help for you Steve, ya C*nt
The vast majority have drawn that conclusion. Obviously not everyone, that's likely impossible. Note we're talking experimental.
Your equal logic would be this.
You know girls exist, you don't know what a vagina is, you think you have as much equal right as a medical professional to make decisions about vaginas despite not knowing they exist. This is why you're wrong. Do you need to be qualified to have a voice in the matter, no. But an uneducated voice is a pointless voice, hence why there's a minimum voting age. It'd be extremely stupid to ask a child how many satellites should be in the sky just like it'd be pointless to ask a beets farmer what kind of spike protein should be in a vaccine.
This ones really not up for debate. If you're not fully educated you cannot make a fully educated decision. There's no way around that, it's an impossibility. It'd be like the laborer having as much final say as the engineer. Nothing would get done, it's stupid. The hierarchy exists for a reason, it's not always right but respect it.

You seem to have summed that up poorly. You're not free, you've never been free. It's an American thing to think this, you're not even the freest country. Almost all laws are set out to nanny. Who defines what your right is or isn't? If the majority of people from the beginning of time thought murder was okay. It would be legal. Laws are almost always set out to look after people. The job of a nanny is to look after kids. Therefore, most laws are nanny laws. Therefore, the govts job is to be an adult nanny and look after its people.

Yeah nah, I can't really put forward an argument here. I don't particularly like majority rules but I do respect them. Mob rule can be dangerous but in and of itself, not dangerous. Even if something is actually the wrong thing to do, if everyone wants to do it, you'd likely cause more harm trying to stop them (e.g. prohibition).

Zantac and Ibuprofen?!? Why are we comparing something you take all the time with a 1 off? If you took Zantac twice in the space of a month, you're not going to have side effects multiple years into the future. If you take it all the time, you could eventually get issues. So I guess you're right but it's such a poor comparison it's wrong.

See the point about individualism. Why not everyone, its just easier and safer.

You're not wrong. It's the boy who cried wolf. You've cried wolf for 150+ years. Maybe this time there is a wolf but statistically, there isn't going to be.

Again, individualism is not practical yet (in terms of what you're saying). Until we have special machines that can point out why everyone's different it's just safer and more efficient to use blanket rules. Imagine having different laws for each individual person. It would be chaos. It won't work, get a new idea.

I think we had a miss understanding here.
I was trying to state you're more likely to have low-educated un-intelligent people grouped in with the anti-vaxers and as a ratio, there would be more un-educated people following the trend than intelligent. It's not to say and I am not saying it's impossible for an intelligent person to follow it, just less likely.
You stated "There are a ton of college-educated "intellectuals" that are just as vulnerable to dangerous ideas as those who are not"
I may misunderstand that, but it seems like you're saying education has no bearing on if you're going to follow a dangerous idea. Which is obviously false.
You could look at education levels for flat earthers. It's a stat that would reflect most flat earthers are uneducated. Not 50% are uneducated and 50% are college-educated "intellectuals". This would show that they are not just as vulnerable but as a matter of fact, less vulnerable.

You already do what society tells you to do. Pretty much your entire life is proof of that. The people who don't do what society wants are dead or in prison. Society wants you to go to school, get educated, get a job, pay taxes. What they don't want is for you to go out and murder children, drive without a license, endanger other people. There are exceptions to all things, however.
I never said the virus was, certain fucked ending. I put forward a worst-case scenario for the vaccine (a hypothetical fucked ending).
I've already stated I don't think the virus is that bad (because in reality for me personally, it isn't). But not everything is about me.
Does any part of you think there is more to this, such as money? Power?
No, what I think is, the virus kills (mostly) old people, old people make (most of) the rules and have (most of) the money, therefore old people are doing what's in (mostly) their best interest. I don't think it's to gain money or power. They already have it, hence why they can do this.
Now I'm not saying I think it's right for them to be acting in their best interest instead of the majority. But what I am saying is the vaccine isn't a big deal and neither is the mandate.

That's the entire reason the govt exists. To make these decisions.
We've covered this and for the most part. I don't trust the majority, I just respect majority rules.
The govt cant be transparent for the same reason Morty told his son the air outside is poisonous. White lies save lives. It's better to tell people cocaine is addictive and will ruin your life (this isn't true for the most part) than it is to say, it's fine but in certain dosages. People will blur this line of dosage and now you have a problem. Save face, tell a white lie.

Just admit it. If you were actually right we couldn't have this conversation (about govt doing this to get more power). It's like saying If we let the govt do this they will have a ballon. If you were right they'd already have the ballon from a hundred years ago thus rendering your point mute but they don't have a ballon because you're wrong.
The fact of the matter is, if you did as you were told there wouldn't be a problem with the livelihood. It's like moaning your car got taken off you because you drove without a license.

Put it simply, If everyone just got it in the first place, there would have been no mandate. No issues, everything would be fine. You're like the kid in class that keeps talking and the teacher says, we're not leaving till it's quiet and then everyone starts to hate you. And you're sitting there like, I have the freedom of speech. Cool, I don't care, I just wanna go home.
At the end of the day on the off chance, you're right it won't matter. It's like when the south wanted slavery. They lost, so will you.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

m121c wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:42 pm There is no factual evidence to show Omicron is anything more than mild. You are doing nothing more but buying into the sensationalism. We are so worried about it, Biden has stopped travel from several African countries but not the European ones where it is present. Talk about a racist xenophobic fascist!
I agree with you on the travel ban. Same thing with Trump's China travel ban. Basically your options are full quarantine for anyone entering the country from anywhere or don't bother. Any partial ban/quarantine is the same as don't bother.

Hypothetical question: if you could prove someone infected you with covid, should they be liable for damages? What about if they're vaccinated? Would that mean they took reasonable measures to prevent it and aren't negligent/liable?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

jlv wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:57 am...someone infected you with covid, should they be liable for damages?
See: https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law/st ... osure.html

Why wouldn't it be weaponized? It kinda already has been inadvertently or not by the usual suspects. Some lady at work said "I don't want to be told what to do." and "If we take care of the border, then we wouldn't have this. We need to get rid of those immigrants." I asked..."All of 'em?" We both just got in our cars then. "I still need to do more research" is a tired saw also. Sadly they and their families continue to suffer the worst losses.
jlv wrote:If it weren't for Havoc I'd have been arguing with the 12 year olds by myself.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

Boblob801 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:35 pm The point of govt is to provide socialist services (police, fire, schooling, roads, parks etc) and nanny society (if society says, we don't like murder and theft, govt has to stop it etc).
You stop right there at socialist.

Also hey man it’s been years hope you’ve been well. Lol
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

baker wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:49 am
Boblob801 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:35 pm The point of govt is to provide socialist services (police, fire, schooling, roads, parks etc) and nanny society (if society says, we don't like murder and theft, govt has to stop it etc).
You stop right there at socialist.

Also hey man it’s been years hope you’ve been well. Lol
I have been well. But not for long, when they turn on my vaccine I'll be in trouble :(
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

Boblob801 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:03 am I have been well. But not for long, when they turn on my vaccine I'll be in trouble :(
I hear they’re going to sometime late in 2024, novemberish
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

I need to go in and download my update.
jlv wrote:If it weren't for Havoc I'd have been arguing with the 12 year olds by myself.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:33 am I need to go in and download my update.
I got a pirated copy I can’t update
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

baker wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:26 pm
TeamHavocRacing wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:33 am I need to go in and download my update.
I got a pirated copy I can’t update
NZ is giving out free copies, no questions asked. (There's a 1/5,000,000 chance they'll jab you with a used needle though :| ).
Our 5g towers aren't all up yet, so ours isn't going live for the whole country for a little while yet.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

We joke while people ACTUALLY believe this! They are actually doing Darwin right. After all these years of devices and features protecting idiots from themselves more and more, this is one way to let them eat cake!
jlv wrote:If it weren't for Havoc I'd have been arguing with the 12 year olds by myself.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:33 am I need to go in and download my update.
Hopefully they made some improvements. The first release was pretty shit.

@Steven, ive been meaning to get back to you but its really hard to get through your arguments. Buddy, just hit the quote button and CTRL-C the quote tags then CTRL-V them where you want to split up the replies. (I know... Ironic given the mess I made of quotes recently).

I also think we are getting off track, and for the sake of everyone else, I want to keep this more on Covid/The Vax rather than what we see the purpose of government, what freedom is, etc. We can do that another time, just know I disagree with you :) Maybe I’ll decipher through it soon, but im on my phone and Id rather not do that to the forum.

Anyhow. If you are an open minded person who can handle a bit a challenge to the ideas by the many in this forum, I invite you to listen to this:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0aZte3 ... CbMHzVPV9w

Im going to hold off on commenting my thoughts as I still have a little bit to go. Its interesting to hear a perspective from some one way more educated on this subject.. and you might just learn somethings you didn’t know, or were not told, throughout all of this. Or at the very least, have some stuff that can be debunked. I admittedly will have confirmation bias on this so Im curious to see some thoughts.

If my voice doesn’t matter, as per Steven, then maybe this Dr’s should. Maybe more than “the man who is Science”?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

Boblob801 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:18 pm
baker wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:26 pm
TeamHavocRacing wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:33 am I need to go in and download my update.
I got a pirated copy I can’t update
NZ is giving out free copies, no questions asked. (There's a 1/5,000,000 chance they'll jab you with a used needle though :| ).
Our 5g towers aren't all up yet, so ours isn't going live for the whole country for a little while yet.
Of course they won’t ask questions... we should though. Especially in cases where the power wrap their hands around our wellness, our freedoms, and our lively hoods without transparency.

I know I said I’d leave it... but when you say America isn’t the “freest”, there are reasons why our Covid response is not like NZ, Australia, Austria, Germany, Canada, and so many other countries.

Its not from lack of trying though, I’ll give the dems that.
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