Political Debate Thread

I've heard conversation coming out of animal pens that is more intelligent than what is going on in here.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:49 pm I think what Cheney did was to wipe George H.W. Bush's ass by getting Saddam since Bush couldn't. Right when we should've redoubled our Bin Laden search, he forced Iraq on us. Going it alone with pathetically weak arguments. That is what got the most hate for starters. It ruined a generation much like Vietnam, but those veterans weren't nearly as abandoned. I think that administration made it's own bed and had to lay in it. However, people are getting misty about Dubya. Don't!!! Trump proved that when you pander to the lowest common denominator at a time when the left was foolishly overconfident in their winning, you had a lackadaisical left response and a stimulated right and the popularity contest was won. Perfect storm.
You might disagree with Bush/Cheney, but they're just normal politicians who the left painted as Nazis. Invading the two countries that were harboring terrorists who attacked the world trade center was not outrageous. (If you don't think that's true, look up where the 93 bombers went.) Also, read Bin Laden's fatwa if you still think Iraq was an unrelated issue. I agree that you can make valid arguments against the war but the idea that Bush was a Nazi for doing it is disingenuous at best and makes an environment where charlatans like Trump prosper.

When you look at the rise of Trump, one of the ways people justified supporting such an obvious liar was "but he fights". That was a reference to Bush and other Republicans passively enduring totally unfair attacks from the left without fighting back. If the left didn't peddle such asinine lies about guys like Bush and Romney, Trump would have had a much harder time gaining traction.
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baker
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

So um…. Ukraine. Thoughts?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Racers52 »

baker wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:41 pm So um…. Ukraine. Thoughts?
Water, food and energy are always the basis of conflict.

Since Russia's annexation of the Crimean peninsula, Ukraine has shut off the northern Crimean canal which is the main supply of fresh water for agriculture and drinking water to the Crimean population.

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Now I do think there is alot more going on, but this is a major reason that hasnt been discussed much from what ive seen.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

Racers52 wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:52 pm
baker wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:41 pm So um…. Ukraine. Thoughts?
Water, food and energy are always the basis of conflict.

Since Russia's annexation of the Crimean peninsula, Ukraine has shut off the northern Crimean canal which is the main supply of fresh water for agriculture and drinking water to the Crimean population.

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Now I do think there is alot more going on, but this is a major reason that hasnt been discussed much from what ive seen.
Sounds like a big issue provoking Russia. Most of what I’ve seen for Putin’s reasoning is “Ukrainian land is Russia’s” … and resources/population Russian assets. To me it sounds like reverting to the era before the fall of the Berlin Wall.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

He got away with Crimea, why not reverse the Orange Revolution? For Russia it was fucking embarrassing! Putin kicked a garbage pail. Grudge held. Guess who praised Putin's moves? Will we now do the Berlin gas lift?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:29 am He got away with Crimea, why not reverse the Orange Revolution? For Russia it was fucking embarrassing! Putin kicked a garbage pail. Grudge held. Guess who praised Putin's moves? Will we now do the Berlin gas lift?
Meanwhile Biden keeps making empty threats of sanctions. Every other country/organization making statements on the invasion is giving Ukraine to them. What’s next?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

baker wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:37 amBiden keeps making empty threats of sanctions...What's next?
First we must stop and praise Putin for his genius move of invading Ukraine. It shows how smart and savvy that was and he should be recognized for it! Who want's to start a shooting war with Russia? What do you suggest other than the well-deserved praise and sanctions?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:02 am
baker wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:37 amBiden keeps making empty threats of sanctions...What's next?
First we must stop and praise Putin for his genius move of invading Ukraine. It shows how smart and savvy that was and he should be recognized for it! Who want's to start a shooting war with Russia? What do you suggest other than the well-deserved praise and sanctions?
You realize regardless of any comments trump makes he is no longer president? Biden is, and he is the one with power to handle the developing situation. Putin doesn’t care at all about sanctions.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Racers52 »

baker wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:13 pm
TeamHavocRacing wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:02 am
baker wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:37 amBiden keeps making empty threats of sanctions...What's next?
First we must stop and praise Putin for his genius move of invading Ukraine. It shows how smart and savvy that was and he should be recognized for it! Who want's to start a shooting war with Russia? What do you suggest other than the well-deserved praise and sanctions?
You realize regardless of any comments trump makes he is no longer president? Biden is, and he is the one with power to handle the developing situation. Putin doesn’t care at all about sanctions.
Yeah, let's focus on someone who doesn't even hold office anymore, makes a lot of sense. Meanwhile, sleepy joe is asleep at the wheel.

Does anyone really believe sanctions will do anything?
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Over 50% of BOTH imports and exports to non-nato countries.
Source : https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Manufacturing

Russia has China and its other allies and that is all they need. Im not calling for direct military intervention but its naive to think sanctions against the russian economy is going to do anything besides spawn negative sentiment towards the countries imposing the sanctions within the russian population as THEY will be the ones most effected; not the military and political elite that are steering this war effort.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

I didn't see any solutions. Just criticism. Our past policies of attack won't work here. Dealing with a psychopath is a lose, lose situation. It's really a matter of capitulation since the two-way street of diplomacy is pointless with him. You can point all you want at Biden, just be happy it wasn't Trump cuz he'd be having military parades in honor of Putin. Gargle gargle.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:18 pm I didn't see any solutions. Just criticism. Our past policies of attack won't work here. Dealing with a psychopath is a lose, lose situation. It's really a matter of capitulation since the two-way street of diplomacy is pointless with him. You can point all you want at Biden, just be happy it wasn't Trump cuz he'd be having military parades in honor of Putin. Gargle gargle.
I will point at Biden, the president. I agree —- Putin is a psychopath as is any commie/totalitarian/autocratic leader. It’s MAD all over again. This situation in Ukraine is nothing new… been stewing and lying dormant, surprised it wasn’t something that happened in 2014 along with Crimea. Putin isn’t at all intimidated by Biden or anything he can say.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

Racers52 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:22 pm Yeah, let's focus on someone who doesn't even hold office anymore, makes a lot of sense. Meanwhile, sleepy joe is asleep at the wheel.
Propaganda has value and an ex president praising Putin is excellent propaganda. Trump is a traitor and he has no shame about that. That really does help the bad guys.

I think Biden has done OK in some ways. Leaking the Russian false flag plans was a good move and made them go to war with no pretext. I hope he's getting more weapons to the Ukrainians but there's no way for us to know what's happening on that front. It'd be foolish to broadcast that information. When you say he's asleep at the wheel what do you propose he do that he hasn't done?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

It always blows my mind when Americans say "bad guy". America is the worst country in the world hands down for causing war and problems. They literally leveled two whole cities full of women and children because someone wanted an island they owned. No one even bated an eye. Went to war with a bunch of rice farmers, lost. Went to war with a bunch of goat herders, lost (This is where you all say you didn't lose. Long story short if you play soccer have 98% possession never score a goal, then decide halfway through the game you don't want to play because you can't score and then forfeit...that's an L). Someone wanted to try governing a different way, waged war on them. Pumped South America full of drugs and money..... waged war on them for having drugs and money, ffs.

Honestly, America should stay out of war. You always make it worse anyway.
Ukraine didn't want to be part of NATO, they took a bunch of shit from Russia instead. It's been going on for all of our lifetimes.
I swear, if Russia was the USA, you guys would all be stoked, blaming Ukraine for causing it by shutting off the canal, saying there are people in there that need freedom. You guys have some weird hard-on for hating Russia and communism. Americans talking about war is the biggest hypocrisy you'll ever see.

Side note, I don't condone or support Russia in its endeavors but fuck me you guys are terrible for war.

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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

The guy currently threatening to nuke the world isn't a bad guy?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

jlv wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:47 am The guy currently threatening to nuke the world isn't a bad guy?
You guys have drop more nukes than everyone in the world combined, if that's the metric for bad guys. America is Poppa bad guy.
I never said he wasn't bad, see side note above.
I just wanted to point out:
- The entire worlds budget for Military (not including USA) < USA's budget for Military (or something like that for 2020).
USA is the world leaders in war & destruction. Maybe stay out of this one.

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