Political Debate Thread

I've heard conversation coming out of animal pens that is more intelligent than what is going on in here.
m121c
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

jlv wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:57 am
m121c wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:42 pm There is no factual evidence to show Omicron is anything more than mild. You are doing nothing more but buying into the sensationalism. We are so worried about it, Biden has stopped travel from several African countries but not the European ones where it is present. Talk about a racist xenophobic fascist!
I agree with you on the travel ban. Same thing with Trump's China travel ban. Basically your options are full quarantine for anyone entering the country from anywhere or don't bother. Any partial ban/quarantine is the same as don't bother.

Hypothetical question: if you could prove someone infected you with covid, should they be liable for damages? What about if they're vaccinated? Would that mean they took reasonable measures to prevent it and aren't negligent/liable?
Far from reality hypothetical but sure on liability, no on the reasonable measure being vaccination.

We’d have to agree on the reasonable measure as the scape goat of liability, and something tells me we wouldn’t be able to do that.

Do I think it should happen? No. I mean it could, but should the civil courts be jammed up because I want my coworker to pay the fee for my copay visit to the Dr because they had a cold two days earlier?

Not to mention the strictness that would be needed for proof. But I guess if you could check all that off and get in front of a judge who will listen, ya sure.

I mean we are the USA, wacky court cases are kinda our thing.
baker
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

Boblob801 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:18 pm
baker wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:26 pm
TeamHavocRacing wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:33 am I need to go in and download my update.
I got a pirated copy I can’t update
NZ is giving out free copies, no questions asked. (There's a 1/5,000,000 chance they'll jab you with a used needle though :| ).
Our 5g towers aren't all up yet, so ours isn't going live for the whole country for a little while yet.
🤨 they reuse needles?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

m121c wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:38 am
Boblob801 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:18 pm
baker wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:26 pm

I got a pirated copy I can’t update
NZ is giving out free copies, no questions asked. (There's a 1/5,000,000 chance they'll jab you with a used needle though :| ).
Our 5g towers aren't all up yet, so ours isn't going live for the whole country for a little while yet.
Of course they won’t ask questions... we should though. Especially in cases where the power wrap their hands around our wellness, our freedoms, and our lively hoods without transparency.

I know I said I’d leave it... but when you say America isn’t the “freest”, there are reasons why our Covid response is not like NZ, Australia, Austria, Germany, Canada, and so many other countries.

Its not from lack of trying though, I’ll give the dems that.
But I'm more free than you ;)
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

baker wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:11 am
Boblob801 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:18 pm
baker wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:26 pm

I got a pirated copy I can’t update
NZ is giving out free copies, no questions asked. (There's a 1/5,000,000 chance they'll jab you with a used needle though :| ).
Our 5g towers aren't all up yet, so ours isn't going live for the whole country for a little while yet.
🤨 they reuse needles?
Yeah this one time.

There's a guy in NZ that got the Jab over 10 times (to farm vaccine passports). He turned into corona man or something.... Nah actually nothing even happened, seems safe.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

m121c wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:38 am I know I said I’d leave it... but when you say America isn’t the “freest”, there are reasons why our Covid response is not like NZ, Australia, Austria, Germany, Canada, and so many other countries.
Deaths per Million:
USA: 2,466
NZ: 9
AU: 82

Also, since they basically eradicated it, Australia and NZ didn't have lockdowns or masks for most of the pandemic. (That's just what I heard somewhere so if anyone has first hand knowledge feel free to correct me.)

Libertarian means limited government - as small as possible, but no smaller. You can do what you want so long as it doesn't affect others. If you do things like spread disease a libertarian government should stop you. You're sounding more like an anarchist than libertarian or conservative.

Do you think Typhoid Mary did anything wrong? Was the government wrong to institutionalize her?
m121c wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:53 am Far from reality hypothetical but sure on liability, no on the reasonable measure being vaccination.

We’d have to agree on the reasonable measure as the scape goat of liability, and something tells me we wouldn’t be able to do that.

Do I think it should happen? No. I mean it could, but should the civil courts be jammed up because I want my coworker to pay the fee for my copay visit to the Dr because they had a cold two days earlier?

Not to mention the strictness that would be needed for proof. But I guess if you could check all that off and get in front of a judge who will listen, ya sure.

I mean we are the USA, wacky court cases are kinda our thing.
It'd be way more than the cost of a doctor visit. Say each person infects 5 others (R=5). After 4 generations of infection you've caused 625 cases. So with the overall death rate of .016 there'd be a 99.99% chance of a death in that group. Google tells me civil death damages are usually between $500,000 and $1,000,000. Assuming everyone in the chain of infection with the death would be on the hook for that, you'd end up liable for between a quarter or the full amount depending on which generation the death happened in. And that's not even counting ICU costs for the ones that didn't die. It'd be kind a like a reverse pyramid scheme. The free market version of a vaccine mandate.

Now like you said, this isn't possible because even if we didn't have non-existent contact tracing it'd still be hard to prove. But it shows the damage you cause by spreading it. The whole "I'll survive it so I don't care" thing is sociopathic.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by DBRider251 »

jlv wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:48 am Also, since they basically eradicated it, Australia and NZ didn't have lockdowns most of the pandemic.
Australia had plenty of lockdowns even into 2021...

Not all are specifically about lockdowns, but mention they had them.
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-07-19/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/how- ... s-n1277426
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/ ... sures-jabs
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/ ... -lockdowns
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/australi ... index.html
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

DBRider251 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:56 am
jlv wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:48 am Also, since they basically eradicated it, Australia and NZ didn't have lockdowns most of the pandemic.
Australia had plenty of lockdowns even into 2021...

Not all are specifically about lockdowns, but mention they had them.
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-07-19/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/how- ... s-n1277426
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/ ... sures-jabs
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/ ... -lockdowns
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/australi ... index.html
I know they had lockdowns. What I'm saying is that from Oct 2020 to Jun 2021 they had complete freedom since the virus was eradicated there.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

Yeah in Nz we had the initial lockdown. Span 5 weeks I think. This was at the start of 2020 (A lovely holiday, if I say so). From then on it was just back to normal, no masks, nothing. Then we had a second lockdown middle of this year, went for a few weeks then we went back to a restricted life. We had to wear masks, social distance, reduced capacity, etc. However, Auckland stayed in lockdown for a considerable amount of time, months. Things are somewhat back to normal again. We have to wear masks still. Capacity and social distancing for the majority of NZ are gone.... mostly. Auckland still has to adhere to these restrictions for now.
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m121c
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

jlv wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:48 am
m121c wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:38 am I know I said I’d leave it... but when you say America isn’t the “freest”, there are reasons why our Covid response is not like NZ, Australia, Austria, Germany, Canada, and so many other countries.
Deaths per Million:
USA: 2,466
NZ: 9
AU: 82

Also, since they basically eradicated it, Australia and NZ didn't have lockdowns or masks for most of the pandemic. (That's just what I heard somewhere so if anyone has first hand knowledge feel free to correct me.)
Why did you choose to leave out Canada, Austria, and Germany? How is death per million stats a benchmark of freedom? I wouldn't really call it eradication, they have done a great job mitigating infection of the more deadly strains early on. I'd say they have certain advantages, especially NZ being it's small population and isolation. Luckily for them, this virus seems to be getting weaker with every variant, so by the time they do let their citizens get back to normal it will just be a mild cold for the entire population. Hopefully their governments will relinquish that power... me things countries like Canada will have a hard time doing that.

Last I checked we don't have Covid quarantine camps, repeated lock downs, and our borders are relatively open (especially if you look at our southern one).
Boblob801 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:57 am Yeah in Nz we had the initial lockdown. Span 5 weeks I think. This was at the start of 2020 (A lovely holiday, if I say so). From then on it was just back to normal, no masks, nothing. Then we had a second lockdown middle of this year, went for a few weeks then we went back to a restricted life. We had to wear masks, social distance, reduced capacity, etc. However, Auckland stayed in lockdown for a considerable amount of time, months. Things are somewhat back to normal again. We have to wear masks still. Capacity and social distancing for the majority of NZ are gone.... mostly. Auckland still has to adhere to these restrictions for now.
So 8-10 weeks of lockdowns country wide, more time spent restricted (while parts saw much longer lockdowns)? I have some people that relocated to Aus that I follow on social media, it seemed every time they turned around they were in lockdowns? All of that for your highest case rate of 200 people? That is a proportional government response?

I will say though, taking a look at the NZ website, it is refreshing the detailed plans that laid out your goals and priorities. Something our country lacked severely.

I'm not really aware of NZ as a country really, so this is a genuine question, outside of the obvious mental/physical effects these measures have on people, has there any been any other effects from these measures? Like in the US, our employment and inflation is really causing some suffering.

Here in the midwest, we "locked down" for 2 weeks at the very start, had to wear masks in certain stores for the summer, and have been living normal life since that point. The only time it seems there is a pandemic is when you venture into a blue state, large city like I live in now, or have kids in the public education system. Really the only thing that has had an impact were the last two EO's from Biden, which have seemingly met their rightful termination. (I'm aware that the federal contractor is only a hold at the moment)
jlv wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:48 am Libertarian means limited government - as small as possible, but no smaller. You can do what you want so long as it doesn't affect others. If you do things like spread disease a libertarian government should stop you. You're sounding more like an anarchist than libertarian or conservative.

Do you think Typhoid Mary did anything wrong? Was the government wrong to institutionalize her?
m121c wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:53 am Far from reality hypothetical but sure on liability, no on the reasonable measure being vaccination.

We’d have to agree on the reasonable measure as the scape goat of liability, and something tells me we wouldn’t be able to do that.

Do I think it should happen? No. I mean it could, but should the civil courts be jammed up because I want my coworker to pay the fee for my copay visit to the Dr because they had a cold two days earlier?

Not to mention the strictness that would be needed for proof. But I guess if you could check all that off and get in front of a judge who will listen, ya sure.

I mean we are the USA, wacky court cases are kinda our thing.
It'd be way more than the cost of a doctor visit. Say each person infects 5 others (R=5). After 4 generations of infection you've caused 625 cases. So with the overall death rate of .016 there'd be a 99.99% chance of a death in that group. Google tells me civil death damages are usually between $500,000 and $1,000,000. Assuming everyone in the chain of infection with the death would be on the hook for that, you'd end up liable for between a quarter or the full amount depending on which generation the death happened in. And that's not even counting ICU costs for the ones that didn't die. It'd be kind a like a reverse pyramid scheme. The free market version of a vaccine mandate.

Now like you said, this isn't possible because even if we didn't have non-existent contact tracing it'd still be hard to prove. But it shows the damage you cause by spreading it. The whole "I'll survive it so I don't care" thing is sociopathic.
What is considered a reasonable measure to not spread the disease, or be a "disease vector" as you put it? Where is this line of "Im trying to protect myself and others" meet the line of "I'll survive it so I don't care" mentality?

We do not disagree that the government should step in when what the individual wants to do effects others. However, just stating such a thing is very binary and not at all reflection of reality. As I stated earlier, the government actions needs to fit the situation, and we need to be diligent in defining the situation, the actions, etc.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm.
Stuff
[/quote]

Yeah but that's 1 month a year. With the rest of the year no restrictions. Then in the second year a quarter was no restrictions then half with moderate then another quarter with light. Overall it was pretty much nothing. I enjoyed my holidays and it's just a mask.

NZ is pretty well fucked in terms of mental health, I think we podium suicides and are gold medalists in youth suicide.

It's hard to say, NZ is the leading country for fucked housing. (It's like 16:1 house price to income ratio, and you can't really go to a small town because it's still 12:1) Some say the mass influx of returning Citizens caused our housing prices to continue to go up. (Huge demand and lacking supply) So I guess if we had a response like the USA they wouldn't have wanted to return.

But I hold the same logic that we're a small isolated country. It was easier for us. Plus we're more educated so ya know, citizens respond better.

At this stage the majority of the country think vaccines are a good idea. So employers are also mandating it. Some people are losing their jobs and going on govt support. Most of the Facebook groups show these people get a lot of govt support prior to these issues anyway. (Ancedotal)
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

Boblob801 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:42 pm [quote=m121c post_id=898016 time=<a href="tel:1639775338">1639775338</a> user_id=4369].
Stuff
[/quote]

Yeah but that's 1 month a year. With the rest of the year no restrictions. Then in the second year a quarter was no restrictions then half with moderate then another quarter with light. Overall it was pretty much nothing. I enjoyed my holidays and it's just a mask.

NZ is pretty well fucked in terms of mental health, I think we podium suicides and are gold medalists in youth suicide.

It's hard to say, NZ is the leading country for fucked housing. (It's like 16:1 house price to income ratio, and you can't really go to a small town because it's still 12:1) Some say the mass influx of returning Citizens caused our housing prices to continue to go up. (Huge demand and lacking supply) So I guess if we had a response like the USA they wouldn't have wanted to return.

But I hold the same logic that we're a small isolated country. It was easier for us. Plus we're more educated so ya know, citizens respond better.

At this stage the majority of the country think vaccines are a good idea. So employers are also mandating it. Some people are losing their jobs and going on govt support. Most of the Facebook groups show these people get a lot of govt support prior to these issues anyway. (Ancedotal)
[/quote]

Sounds like you are in the right country for you then if you are okay with that.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm Why did you choose to leave out Canada, Austria, and Germany?
Because they suck almost as bad as we do.
m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm How is death per million stats a benchmark of freedom?
You don't have much freedom when you're dead.
m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm Last I checked we don't have Covid quarantine camps, repeated lock downs, and our borders are relatively open (especially if you look at our southern one).
We definitely needed to completely close down the borders and quarantine everyone entering the country. Just like Australia and New Zealand did. Obviously their borders are easy but quarantining everyone entering the country is something we could have and should have done.
m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm What is considered a reasonable measure to not spread the disease, or be a "disease vector" as you put it? Where is this line of "Im trying to protect myself and others" meet the line of "I'll survive it so I don't care" mentality?
Whatever it takes to get Rt under 1. So for the original virus, vaccination alone probably got it near 0. With delta, you might need some masking in addition to the vaccination to get there. Now with omicron it sounds like we're screwed. Hopefully it's more mild but we really don't know that yet. In any case, "I'm trying to protect myself and others" sounds reasonable but "I'll survive it so I don't care" is a real shitty attitude to have.

Once again, do you think Typhoid Mary did anything wrong? Was the government wrong to institutionalize her?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Boblob801 »

m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:00 pm
Sounds like you are in the right country for you then if you are okay with that.
My understanding was that the vast majority of people worldwide preferred this outcome.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

jlv wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:18 am
m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm Why did you choose to leave out Canada, Austria, and Germany?
Because they suck almost as bad as we do.
So you selectively chose Aus and NZ to benchmark freedom, because they are doing better than us although being completely different, citing that they are somehow more free because someone told you they didn't have to wear masks or lockdown for most of the pandemic? Only to find out first hand they had lockdowns for 3-4x longer than we did, still are restricted, have severely locked down the border (in NZ's case) and in Australia's case they have actual quarantine camps.

Come on man.
jlv wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:18 am
m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm How is death per million stats a benchmark of freedom?
You don't have much freedom when you're dead.
What a cheap response.
jlv wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:18 am
m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm Last I checked we don't have Covid quarantine camps, repeated lock downs, and our borders are relatively open (especially if you look at our southern one).
We definitely needed to completely close down the borders and quarantine everyone entering the country. Just like Australia and New Zealand did. Obviously their borders are easy but quarantining everyone entering the country is something we could have and should have done.
You still think this is a worth while policy? Clearly the things we have been doing are not working. If what Dr. Mcullough said in his interview (not sure if you watched it) is true, you don't think there might be some measures that can be taken to improve our situation that doesn't further the risk of known social and economic issues?
jlv wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:18 am Whatever it takes to get Rt under 1. So for the original virus, vaccination alone probably got it near 0. With delta, you might need some masking in addition to the vaccination to get there. Now with omicron it sounds like we're screwed. Hopefully it's more mild but we really don't know that yet.
As of 2 days ago (might be different due to Omicron) we are pretty much right on that line according to this model: https://epiforecasts.io/covid/posts/nat ... ed-states/.

So for you it's case load, not mitigating deaths? I get no one wants to be sick, but if we can actively reduce the death and/or severe cases, at what point is throwing everything we have at this going to just break our country? This isn't going away, as many experts have suggested. Infact, some believe the measures we have taken have caused more death because we focused our agenda in the wrong area's for this virus.

Omicron might be more infectious, but there is still not data to suggest severity. Both sides are wrong, it should not be down played, nor should it be fear mongered.
jlv wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:18 am In any case, "I'm trying to protect myself and others" sounds reasonable but "I'll survive it so I don't care" is a real shitty attitude to have.
Once again, do you think Typhoid Mary did anything wrong? Was the government wrong to institutionalize her?
No no no, answer the question. What does "I'm trying to protect myself and others" look like to you. If you want to make this argument of liability to show the damage one takes spreading the disease, you should identify what the line is between liability and just accident. Is it vaccination? 2nd dose or booster? 1 mask? 2 mask? Try to maintain or get to healthy body fat? Social distancing? Listening to Fauci? CDC? WHO? FDA? Biden?

How about someone who is vaccinated running around thinking they are protected, avoiding or reducing the use of other measures. Does liability now get passed to the... oh wait... immunity. :|

The C19 vaccination campaign is becoming this balancing act of a strange religion and a cult.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

Boblob801 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:27 am
m121c wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:00 pm
Sounds like you are in the right country for you then if you are okay with that.
My understanding was that the vast majority of people worldwide preferred this outcome.
What outcome is that?

You just spoke about how bad your countries housing has been and mental health. Sure it's easy for you to say that you just got to have a lovely holiday and a simple jab in the arm. People who have small businesses might think different. People with small children might think different. People who will incur life altering effects for "doing their duty" might think different. Here in the US we have fundamentally fucked entire generation of young students over a virus that has no statistical risk to them at all, and to add to it, we now want to jab them with a vaccine that has NO testing on it's lasting effects on them. There are even some signs of risk, but you don't hear Pfizer telling that to them before they sign their kid up.

This is not isolated effects either, this is common stuff.

I think I can agree we all have the common goal of not dying and wanting this disease to go away. Unfortunately, it seems only a minority also want to preserve freedoms, social and physical well being, economies, etc.
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