Political Debate Thread

[dbaum25moto]

Go trump!

[On The Pipe]

Seems Bernie is just a toolbag as expected now support Clinton. Old saying I trust'em about as far as I can throw'em.

One reason why I despise demos is they are so irrational when it comes to the real world. Obama care is a flipping joke the middle class is fronting the whole damn thing. If the government actually paid for shit and didn't spend it on worthless ass shit may be it would work. Except they just tax everyone because cutting budgets is too fking hard. Yeah congress must be great have all those vacation days life sure is hard. Free college is in the same boat sounds like a good idea, but when you actually figure out how it will be truly implemented the people will end up paying. Most ironic thing is we left Britain yet our country has transformed into what we escaped. The people calling for 15hr for mcdonalds fk off you lazy shits. How about the people with skill trades whose wages have been relatively stagnant for years now. If the job can be done by anyone it shouldn't pay shit. Life isn't fair it's what you make of it.

Trump 2016 bitches

[Big Smooth one3]

The people calling for 15hr for mcdonalds fk off you lazy shits. How about the people with skill trades whose wages have been relatively stagnant for years now. If the job can be done by anyone it shouldn't pay shit.

Maybe it was just because of how eloquently you worded that ( ), but a half-baked idea just occurred to me. What if, instead of lifting the general minimum wage, we were able to set some sort of benchmark for those who are skilled/trained/educated in the workforce. I'm not so naive to think I'm the genius who thought of this idea first, so there is clearly a reason why this doesn't work, but it's just a thought. I completely agree that the issue in the workforce today that has wide-ranging impacts is the stagnant wages for those skilled or well educated workers and NOT the high-school drop outs who had to be forced into working at Micky D's after their unemployment ran out. I have absolutely no idea how to implement this idea because you can't just set it as "If you have X level of educational degree, you must be paid at least Y" because that neglects the skilled laborers who didn't need such a degree to reach their level of prowess - and because it feeds into another MAJOR issue we have, which is the never-ending raise in college tuition based on absolutely nothing other than "well, we think we'd like to have more money this year, so you all need to pay us X% more for the same thing you got last year." That one is actually my pet-peeve, but we don't have to go down that rabbit hole today.

So in summary, I agree that raising minimum wage across the board is both unrealistic in terms of the crazy increase in labor expenses and unevenly beneficial to those who don't deserve such a huge raise. But until there is a reason for the businesses that employ the skilled/educated workers who haven't seen a raise in years, but know having a job without pay increase is better than not having a job at all, I just don't see how that wage stagnation will change. With a recovering economy (or any economy, for that matter), it is always going to be easier for businesses to control expenses than to drive revenues, and the easiest way to control expenses to make up for the shortfall in revenue is through limiting labor costs - and once everyone is doing that, it creates a ceiling for employee wages. There is zero incentive to pay workers more if all of your competing businesses aren't, because you won't have employees leave to work for one of those competitors since no one is raising wages. I'm having a hard time describing what I'm trying to say, but hopefully that's at least semi-coherent...

My intention to write 3-4 sentences turned into 2 paragraphs, so I'll end it there. Hope this makes sense!

[On The Pipe]

There is also a huge CEO income inequality gap. CEO salaries have skyrocketed since the 80's and average workers wages have not really kept up with inflation. They also send way too many jobs overseas and mainly only white collar ones stay here. I understand it's a business, but there becomes a point when you start to destroy your own countries economy. I get pissed when I hear about minimum wage people wanting an increase. Honestly, the middle class is the backbone of the country and lack of attention to this group will lead to the ultimate downfall of the economy. If money doesn't move around that is a bad thing.

There is just some many issues going on right now I wouldn't be surprised if something big is on the horizon. Like some Fall of Rome level shit.

[John23]

[m121c]

On the topic of Bernie and free college, and that college is too expensive.

In a way, I want to agree that college is crazy expensive. I'm a 20 year old who graduated high school and didn't go right to college and elected to work and live life a little, and now that I've decided to go into school this fall, I think I have a better understanding and financial responsibility because of the path I've chosen. Yes, school is an expensive investment, BUT, stupid decisions and poor judgement make it more than it need to be.

For instance I see so many people screaming 6 digit debt. What school did you go to?! Some people make poor decisions on what college they want to go to vs. a realistic choice. For instance, you need to go 3 states over and pay virtually 2-3x more on tuition because you are out of state? I don't know many who go to private college that can't afford it, but it happens, again poor decisions. Then we have poor decisions regarding their choice of major. This topic offends a lot of people... mainly the ones who pick the stupid ones. If you pick a major or career path based on your absolute love for it, and not research the facts or trends of that career, that is poor decision making. I could list them, but I will probably offend some people around here and I don't want to deal with that. Let's just say, I don't believe going to school to major in music (the arts) or communications is a very responsible decision.

Not saying you will not be successful if you pursue those fields... but numbers would suggest it will be very difficult and it is has been very unlikely for many graduates.

It really comes down to responsibility of decisions, college is only overly expensive and a waste of money if you let it be by your decisions. Which brings up if we should make it a socialist program and make it free to all citizens.

If we have so many people making poor decisions with their own money, is a good a idea to put a safety blanket in there so people can make even worse decisions with the peoples money? What would be the restrictions? Limited to your state of college? What if you want to go to a better, more expensive college than some one else, is that fair to the other students that they only get 30K instead of 90k? Do we now force colleges (who are businesses) to have a set rate of tuition across the board which would mean the government is now controlling their business? Should the people really pay for statistically proven useless degrees or even worse, liberal arts? If college becomes free, it then becomes the norm and expectation that everyone should go. The numbers to pay for every person going to college currently seem high, just think how high it would be when EVERYONE goes.

What happens if your socialist program runs out of funds? The program suffers. So does that mean or highest level of education will get budget cuts like so much of our school districts across the nation? Will the education suffer because of it? Bernie wanted to rely on the rich mainly to make the extra money, what happens when the rich (who are rich for a reason) don't buy in? Now you can't afford it... so it's up to the middle class to pick up the slack. Further causing more problems. Let's not mention the disaster of our already current socialist based programs... social security anyone? If that isn't proof that the government can't get their greedy hands off of the people's money.. so if they are so willing to take from the people, what makes you think they wouldn't do that will the tuition fund? Sorry we borrowed too much this year... we have to limit you from going to school, gotta wait till next year. Can anyone not see that happening?

Free college sounds amazing.. until you break it down. Like I said, I think it comes down to responsible decisions. I see kids who never went to school and got a local job whether it be at a factory or what have you, then they sign up for a loan to buy a new $50,000 truck. That's literally college right there, any many of them will make fun of college students because they "fell for the system" and are going to be swarmed with debt... kind of how they are with their new lifted 4x4 diesel...... so I know that was long winded... but in short I think I fall more on the side that I don't think college is crazy expensive like so many make it out to be.

[mxsrider96]

I 100% agree Mason. I love the idea of free college if it were actually FREE college, but making my gross pay get cut in half by the Tuition Tax is not free college. I love the way you explained your argument, really opened my eyes more to Bernie's dumbass thoughts of what he wanted to do

[SMR 510RR]

Here are my thoughts on government programs...

We would all be better off deciding where we wanted out money spent ourselves. If you want to go to college the tax savings from not having to put everyone through college should pay for it and more. These systems don't pay out as much as they take in, the people have to get paid to give out money. It is virtually the same as a payday loan or cash advance and anyone with any sense knows that those are scummy.

When I hear people talk about single payer healthcare the only thing I can think is "You want your health care to be more like the DMV?". Seriously, IDK about other states DMV but here in CA it's the biggest cluster fuck.

I think if people woke up and realized that the government is inefficient maybe they would understand. If you put $10 in and can take $8 out does that seem like a good deal?

As far as the "global economy"...We are getting fucked. We used to have tons of good jobs for every day people. You could get a job in a factory and you could work there your whole life and it would buy you a house, you could raise some kids, and best of all you could be proud of what you made. People used to be able to say "I work at xxxxxxxx making yyyyyyy". We don't have that anymore. It's either Mcdonalds or Wall Street. The middle has vanished.

We have a big problem when Japanese auto manufactures start making more of their cars here then we do you know something is wrong.

I have basically accepted that I won't be able to stay here where I grew up. A "starter" home here is $1.2 million, how can I ever climb that mountain? I can move somewhere else but my skillset isn't useful there and I wouldn't be able to make 1/2 as much money. Leaves me in virtually the same situation. Whole thing is f'ed.

[m121c]

I hear ya there. If a 5 million dollar website that doesn't even function properly (*cough* Obamacare *cough*) developed by the government doesn't tell you the inefficiencies, IDK what does.

[Big Smooth one3]

My issue with higher education isn't necessarily one with any future structure of colleges in America, but rather with their current operating status quo. Also, I was hesitant to post this because I don't want this to be about me, but I do feel like I am a decent example of the hill that even responsible people who go to college have to climb upon graduating.

In short, I got my undergraduate degree at an out-of-state school BUT only paid in-state tuition through a the Federal Academic Common Market program - a certain degree is not offered at a public institution in your state, you can attend another state's public university for in-state cost. On top of that, I was incredibly fortunate to have a Grandfather who was an executive at Wachovia for years and had setup a college fund for me before I could say the word "college." So that paid for the vast majority of my 4 years, but I did have to take loans for the final year. I then chose to enroll in a Master's program at a top-tier graduate school within my field - I'd long before set the goal of doing original research and writing/publishing a thesis. Funding for grad assistantships at the school was rare, so the first week I moved to that town I got a job, but with the course load and research work, 40 hours was unrealistic. I worked as much as my schedule allowed, at minimum wage btw, and grinded it out best I could - though that also required taking loans to pay for school that 1st year. Second year of the program I was lucky enough to have been nominated for a GA position by a professor I had been doing research for/with. The assistantship work was in teaching Golf and Bowling classes to undergrads, which covered my tuition and afforded me a small stipend, all while I continued to work the minimum wage job. I finished my thesis, graduated school, and immediately (by sheer luck, honestly) stepped into a full time salaried job.

So knowing all of that, I get sick to my stomach once a month when I look at the amount of money I still have to pay to get out of the hole. I have stuck to the highest monthly payment plan to get the most out of the way before kids, etc., but it doesn't seem to shrink. Then I think about all of the other people who went to college, didn't have a wealthy grandfather, didn't get to take advantage of the common-market program, weren't able to get GA positions, and didn't hop directly into a job - how in the hell are those people paying their loans? I'm not going broke, but I am delaying major life events - first house, first child, etc. - because I know what my monthly obligations are. How do these other people who weren't as fortunate as I progress in life with that burden? I honestly don't understand, and it scares the living shit out of me to think about what's going to happen when even a small portion all of those other people default on their loans and that bubble pops.

Anyway, just an example of how even a responsible (at least I think) and very fortunate (again, at least I feel that way) venture into higher education comes with it's costs, which impact more than just your bank account as you age and try to start a family. This one major obstacle is one which becomes more severe with each freshman class of students who are paying more and more for the same year of education that was provided the prior years.

This next sentence is crucial - I IN NO WAY AM ADVOCATING FOR FREE COLLEGE. I do, however, think a tiny bit of regulation/oversight for maybe just public colleges is needed. My initial thought is to limit year-over-year tuition increases to X% above the rate of inflation, if not just matching that rate. It's an inflexible product that will always be in demand, and these people can set whatever price they want because there will always be students and they will always be able to manufacture more and more money each year. What business asks it's customers to trust that they are working in their best interests whilst justifying this years price increase? And if you don't think colleges/universities are businesses, you're lying to yourself.

Mason - I sincerely hope you don't take this as a horror story to scare you going into college, because that's the last thing I'm trying to do. I am a big believer in the value of higher education, but I feel the system is heading towards being broken, which is concerning. I also feel that it is the root cause for what may somewhere down the line become the biggest credit default bubble we've seen - but I really hope I'm wrong.

My "I'll keep this short" thought-process went really well...grad school bad habits never die...

[m121c]

No not scaring me at all, I've already been over the numbers a bunch so I know what I am signing up for. It's interesting to hear your story though and your viewpoint of already going through it. As someone who has to pay my 100% my own way for school, I need/want to hear the good the bad the ugly. One thing that I can't stand, at least at my schools orientation, the school try's hiding all the financial portions and information from the students, which is a big problem. They shelter them, and I feel a lot of these kids that come out of highschool don't actually "get" it, nor understand it, because of how well the school has kept them out of it. I just get told "oohh you should just be focused on the education and having fun, let the adults stress over how the finances work" uhhhhh what? I am the adult and those finances are mine... so I damn well better be involved.

I did not know about the common market program. that is pretty cool! That is one thing about colleges... for being post secondary and higher level education, they sure do go about doing things in weird and overly complicated manner. Just the sheer amount of applications and forms and obligations you have fulfill before you even stand on campus day 1 is crazy. Let alone the numerous amount of financial aid tasks and websites, it gets overwhelming and confusing.

Might be personal question here, and you don't have to answer, but what kind of numbers on loans did you have? I'm just curious, because from someone who already has a truck loan and a bike loan (not saying you haven't I'm sure you have), both almost paid off, the numbers of a 10 year fixed rate college loan, don't seem terrible? I mean I estimate at the most it will be $40,000 if I'm lazy and don't take initiative and go after scholarships (thankfully I already have some kick ass ones so that helps, so that number is lower), and the interest rate for these loan are lower than both my truck and my bike. So to me, I look at this ten year loan plan and just think of it as a new Chevy Silverado or something of that nature. Now given, you don't start out making the median salary that you field is supposed to make which some people seem to expect (depends what field and circumstances) so you don't make the killing you think are going to with your new shiny degree right off the bat, but still. Even if that were true there are different ways of paying, you can always do a progressive payment plan, where you payments start out small and increase over time, overtime you end up paying a couple thousand more on interest, but that's just an option to better help you right off the bat instead of paying large payments with a relatively starter career salary.

Again too, choices. You are completely correct in saying a College is a business. Just like many businesses, they do not function with out customers. If their prices are too outrageous or not competitive with other schools, they will suffer. But I agree, moderation is not always bad.

One thing I do find to be a joke, is dorm living. It is so damn expensive to not have your own bathroom and shower and to live in basically a box. My University has dorm building's with no AC, August and September here are brutally hot, that would be miserable. It's $9,000 to live in a dorm, up front. If you are a freshman, you are required to purchase a $4,000 meal plan. That is just ridiculous to me. I elected to live off campus in an Apt. that is literally across the street from campus. In fact, I am closer to my classes than the student parking lots... WIN! The cost of living in this apt. vs. the dorm cost is literally 1/2... and I will paying that out of pocket not on loans. So my tuition is the only thing I will be borrowing for, which is $8,060 this year. Is that a good number? I don't know I never looked at out of state schools.

Now federal loans I feel are pretty well moderated. They are fixed interest, and they limit how much you can borrow per year, which is smart. Although I wish it would rise with raising tuition rates, often it is not enough which gets people in trouble because they go to a bank for a financial education loan, and often times this is where people getted ruined. These loans are often tricky, usually not 10 year plans, and vary in interest rates. For example, this year as I said my tuition is $8K, which will be about all I will be needing to borrow for. Now for a first year freshman in my state (might be nationally?) the borrow limit is $5,500 for dependent students and $9,500 for independent students. I got the 5.5K, pretty much split in 2 with a subsidized and unsubsidized loan that add up to that number. Now luckily, I don't have to make up the difference out of pocket, or with any more borrow money, I have enough in scholarships that I will actually get some money back, so that's sweet.

I don't understand how some of these kids can do the $19K bills for dorm living, meal plan, and tuition. If you are borrowing... ouch. You are right though, sometimes I sit there and think how even I am going pay for them, let alone the other kids that stand beside me telling me that they are going into music, or art, or communications, or psychology, or sociology. I just sit there and think, how are you paying so much money to get a job that will most likely not make you more than the average factory line worker out of highschool? Not to mention there are more jobs for those factories than there will be for your field. Crazy.

IDK, I'm nervous, I'm excited, and I'm worried all at the same time. Regardless, I'm committed and what ever the outcome is, well is the outcome. Worse comes to worse, I become the worlds nicest drug dealer, and live an awesome life until I'm caught... then the government has to pay for me.

[SMR 510RR]

I have a different and unique experience if you guys are interested. Because of it I have a completely different outlook on higher education.

I didn't go to college because to be honest I can't stand school and how it all works. I ended up going to vocational school to be an auto mechanic, got out and did that for 6-9 months and decided that it sucked (it does suck). Was looking for something else and got a job with some friends at a machine shop and started taking machining classes at a community college at night. Ended up making friends with another student who eventually called about 6 months after our program was over and said he had a job opportunity for me.

I got the job working at a medical device startup, I was employee 10.. I was primarily a prototype machinist but I also did design work and my specialty was silicone mold making. I was in way over my head at first but over the 4 years I worked there I got very good at the job. The company grew to almost 50 people. Unfortunately there were some issues with getting FDA approval and this was right after the collapse so the investors weren't give us any more money (by this point we had spent over $100 million in the time I was there). They ended up laying off 1/2 the company including 3 out of the 4 people that worked in the machine shop. About a year and a half later they ran out of money and the whole thing folded. They ended up selling the patents (two of them I have my name on) to Johnson and Johnson I think it was.

Got on unemployment and way putting out resumes all over the place but it was hard to even get a call back. The two other guys who got let go had way more experience than I did and they got the jobs I was most qualified for. It was rough.

My Dad is an Architect and has had his own practice for close to 40 years. His office was still drafting by hand at the time (old school I know) and since I had CAD experience he asked me to check out the different software packages that were available so he could pick the best one. After tinkering with it a bit he asked me to come work for him. I have been doing that for around 5 years and am 3 years away from being able to get my Architecture License. Luckily California is one of the only states that allows you to use work experience alone to do so. Most states you have to have a degree plus work experience in order to take the exams.

Currently I am personally managing about 15 projects in different stages of the process. The value of all the projects when they are completed would be something like $30+ million.

So what is my point? My point is that college shouldn't be a requirement for a majority of jobs. I do agree that it has a place and that it can be valuable but I think that internship is just as valid if not more valid in a lot of circumstances. There used to be lots of jobs that were learned through internship but now everyone is funneled into college where before you even start your career you have a bunch of debt. IDK, it doesn't make that much sense to me. I think on the job experience is so much more valuable, it's going to be 100% relevant and there is no "filler".

Do I regret not going to college? Yea a bit. I could have gone but chose not to. Looking back on it I probably should have done it but mostly because it would have been a box checked on my resume. At the medical device company I worked with Mechanical engineers from Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, etc. and most of them couldn't design their way out of a paper bag. Even people with great degrees can be horrible at their job.

Anyway, that is my take.

[m121c]

Completely agree SMR.

Turning this back to politics in a short rant...

Did anyone else see Obama's deplorable speech or what should have been a eulogy, but turned into a political agenda speech. The crowd should have boo'd his ignorant ass off the stage and shamed him. Just because you are the president of the United States does not mean you should be respected at all times, when you yourself are being completely disrespectful. You do not go to a ceremony/funeral for 5 slain cops who were killed by a black racist and then proceed to push your liberal ideas on gun control, BLM, 2 black men killed by police, and then sit there and LECTURE the Dallas police department on systematic racism that is supposedly swarming our justice system and how they are the problem. All the while the family of 5 American serviceman are in the crowd mourning the loss of their relative, brother, husband, and father, has to sit there and take this complete lack of respect and spew his hatred.

Obama, his wife, and his administration have to be the most unethical, ignorant, corrupted, and down right degrading group of people to ever be in voted into the presidency. They seem hell bent on creating chaos and flipping this country upside down. I can not wait till January when he is out of office and Trump refuses to shake his hand as he walks in and takes the office chair. I would love to seem him flip Obama the bird as he has his a police officer escort him off the premises.

You can think what you want. Be on any side you want. Have any views or opinions or agenda you want. But no matter who you are, you don't go to an event that is meant to celebrate, mourn, and respect the lives of ANYONE, let alone 5 American serviceman who I would consider Hero's. It's disgusting and pathetic. You are supposed to be their commander and chief, you are supposed to UNITED PEOPLE, that is your job. Not a surprise though... the last 8 years he's done everything but his freaking job.

[Big Smooth one3]

A quick foreward to Part III of "Justin's Semi-On-Topic Forum Novels": If these ridiculously long posts annoy you, I apologize. It wasn't my intent to carry on like this, but it's something that I feel I have experience with and, knowing the age of almost everyone on here, if any of this can shed a light on some of what you will get into someday, then I'll take it. If it's just annoying and you wish I'd shut up, please feel free to ignore, you won't hurt my feelings.

Might be personal question here, and you don't have to answer, but what kind of numbers on loans did you have? I'm just curious, because from someone who already has a truck loan and a bike loan (not saying you haven't I'm sure you have), both almost paid off, the numbers of a 10 year fixed rate college loan, don't seem terrible?

I don't mind sharing a bit here, it's one thing to know what's coming in theory and another one entirely when you graduate and have the "Holy shit..." moment - at least it was for me, but it does sound like you have a more clear direction for what your path will be than I did at your age. Once I graduated, I had around 5-6 months before my official "effective date" of hire at my job, so I took advantage of the ability to defer payments up to 6 months (I think that's the timeline) after graduation. Since then, I have been paying at least $600 a month for my account, and as of the 28th of this month will have a little over $41K remaining. If I were able to maintain that pace, I'm looking at roughly another 68 months (5.6 years) of payments, which brings the total to around 7 or 8 years of paying off my loans. I handle the loan payments in my houseshold, and luckily my wife only has about half of what I do, so ontop of all the other usual monthly payments for house/car/etc., we're making just shy of $1K in monthly student loan payments. I've always stuck on the highest monthly payment plan and have several times paid double that amount when I was able to. That said, I imagine when we have our first kid I will have to bump it down to one of the various other payment structures - but for the time being, I want as much out of the way as we can handle.

The bulk of what I owe - nearly half, actually - comes from my 1st year of grad school when I was fighting for the GA job. Was it ideal to go out of state (common market only applies to bachelors-level programs)? No, but I chose to go to a well respected program that I felt would allow me to do what I wanted to, which was do a deep dive into learning how to research and actually doing some myself. Like I said before, my goal had always been to complete an originally researched Thesis, and then my plan was to continue on to get my PhD. That changed after 2 years in grad school (read below), and although I hate the fact that I had to bury myself in debt for a year, at that point in time my main goal in life was my thesis (outside of this girl I was crazy about, which worked out better than grad school, though can still be expensive from time-to-time ) . Undergrad was easy for me, and I didn't get any sense of accomplishment when I graduated - basically just like high school, it was expected, not some great achievement - but I knew what I wanted after that. Looking back, I turned into a completely different person in the matter of a few months before starting grad school, some might even say I became an "adult" lol. Point being, I understand the cost I knowingly incurred to pursue this life goal of mine and wouldn't change that decision if I could, but I am concerned for those who take out similar loans without knowing what they are sacrificing or any real sense of pursuing a major life goal as I was. Hope that makes sense...

One thing I left out of my last post is the fact that after graduating from my Masters program, the job I fell into (and still have) isn't really in the field I was studying. However, when I went through the interview process and spoke with those who were hiring me, they all universally brought up my level of education and the skills I developed by going through that process which set me above the other candidates. I actually graduated with my Master's in Kinesiology with a specialty in Sport Psychology and Motor Behavior, but I in no way directly work with that field, though I do apply a ton of what I learned in my job now. Outside of field-specific knowledge I studied through the years, the skills I developed in going through all this schooling are what serve me best now. The work ethic, pro-active nature, attention to detail, analytical approach to work, all of those things are skills I developed to adapt to the demands of school that weren't learned in a classroom or included in any curriculum. Don't get me wrong, I have a deep passion for the field I dedicated 6 years of my life to, and always will, but once I got on the inside - which for those types of fields, is pretty much graduate school - I saw a lot of things going on that I didn't agree with. The biggest reason I chose to not continue onto pursuing my doctorate was because my major professor, the one who offered to oversee my thesis (which was being phased out in the program, essentially. I was 1 of only 2 people out of nearly 100, and you can't ask, it has to be offered) and got me that grad assistanship position, basically took steps to steal my research. At least it met my definition of stealing, but it's just the normal practice of professors with research based graduate students and happens way more than most know. But it's not entirely their fault, because unless they are tenured, their job is up for review and termination every fucking year. If they don't meet that research minimum, it's pretty unlikely they are keeping their job. On top of that, they are advising students, teaching high level courses, speaking on behalf of the university at conferences, etc. I decided that wasn't a decision I ever wanted to have to make if I got to where I wanted to be, which was to become a professor, because I would be choosing between what I felt was morally right and my livelihood - so I cut the cord. I still haven't had to guts to look into her published research since I stopped communication, I really don't think I want to see the research I poured my life into being published and credited to someone else. It was tough enough to stomach when I finally realized what was happening, don't want to experience that feeling again when it's so far out of my control...

Last thing Mason - if you have questions or think there is anything at all that I can shed some light on that will be helpful to you, don't hesitate to reach out. I feel a bit bad for flooding this thread with not-so-political talk, so you can always shoot me a PM and I'll be more than happy to chat.

So what is my point? My point is that college shouldn't be a requirement for a majority of jobs. I do agree that it has a place and that it can be valuable but I think that internship is just as valid if not more valid in a lot of circumstances. There used to be lots of jobs that were learned through internship but now everyone is funneled into college where before you even start your career you have a bunch of debt. IDK, it doesn't make that much sense to me. I think on the job experience is so much more valuable, it's going to be 100% relevant and there is no "filler".

Thanks for sharing Jason, very cool story and always nice to get some background on the guys around here that I respect. To your point in this quote, I actually completely agree. I said that I see value in higher education, which I do - as I would assume anyone with half a brain does - but that doesn't mean it should be a prerequisite to the extent that it typically is now. I also strongly believe that we (society) need to quit pushing kids towards college so fervently. No one will ever argue against education, but that idea doesn't carry with it the practical realities of what "pursuing an education" entails. There are so many brilliant, naturally talented and hard working people that frankly don't need college to excel in their field. Unfortunately, I don't think our current system of introducing young adults into the workforce does anything but put up barriers to people like that, all because they didn't pay gobs of money to spend 85% of their time taking bullshit general education classes - trust me, that part sucks, especially when it's required attendance.

Did anyone else see Obama's deplorable speech or what should have been a eulogy, but turned into a political agenda speech.

Unfortunately, it's not just an Obama thing. I agree it's entirely inappropriate, but it's not like using a tragedy for a political platform is a new thing - and I'll run down the street naked if that every changes.

/novel

[SMR 510RR]

On a political note (trying to at least stay slightly on topic here) I am hoping that the attack in Nice, France will wake some people up. Guns are not the problem, crazy people are the problem. At some point things that could be used incorrectly to harm people are necessary. That could be a gun, or a truck, or a plane, or anything else.

Also, not sure about Pence as Trump's VP. Seems like that decision will push fence sitters and people who just don't want to vote for HIllary away. Personally I am not religious so when people start using religion as their reasoning behind policy it can be off putting even if I agree with the policy. IDK, maybe that is illogical but it just feels strange in some way.

Thanks for sharing Jason, very cool story and always nice to get some background on the guys around here that I respect. To your point in this quote, I actually completely agree. I said that I see value in higher education, which I do - as I would assume anyone with half a brain does - but that doesn't mean it should be a prerequisite to the extent that it typically is now. I also strongly believe that we (society) need to quit pushing kids towards college so fervently. No one will ever argue against education, but that idea doesn't carry with it the practical realities of what "pursuing an education" entails. There are so many brilliant, naturally talented and hard working people that frankly don't need college to excel in their field. Unfortunately, I don't think our current system of introducing young adults into the workforce does anything but put up barriers to people like that, all because they didn't pay gobs of money to spend 85% of their time taking bullshit general education classes - trust me, that part sucks, especially when it's required attendance.

Exactly. Different people learn in different ways and it would be great to embrace that. It's not that I don't value higher education it is simply just not for me. To be honest it is a pace thing. It hard when students are different paces, you almost have to cater to the slower learners and that leaves the faster learners bored and engaged. I think the new crop of charter schools, at least in my area, are sort of addressing that but they have limited space.

I think that the important characteristics that you attribute to your college education would have been there if you had taken another path anyways. Those things were always inside you you just needed to find them. People leave college every year no better than when they went in, practically speaking anyways.

A friend of mine went to UCSB and ended up with an internship at a large Accounting Firm in San Francisco for two years during college. They ended up offering to pay for his masters, in return he would work for them for a minimum of X number of years so they could get use out of his degree. That is something I would like to see more of. If businesses or entire professions are going to require advanced degrees I think they should have some up front responsibility for the costs of those degrees. The tech industry is a great example. Currently there "are not enough qualified people" to fill all the positions so they have to use H1-B visas to bring a whole bunch of foreign labor over. From what I hear from people in the industry it's a bunch of BS and they do it to cut costs.