Political Debate Thread

I've heard conversation coming out of animal pens that is more intelligent than what is going on in here.
jlv
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

TM_Infidel wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:43 am Stick to mxsim jlv, you are embarrassing yourself.
If you have an argument to make, make it.
m121c wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:14 pm It has less to do with defending Trump, and more to do with combating the unethical "journalism" of corporate media/tech giants and exposing a new alternative perspective to it's gullible consuming audience. I'm not angry jlv, I'm disappointed. I know you reallllyyy dislike Trump, and there are legitimate reasons to not like him, but I didn't think you would be the one to pull the fallacy charade of the whole disinfectant talking point. Even with your absolute hatred for Trump, you have to see the unfair, unethical, and down right dirty tactics the media used against him to sway the general population that takes major news at face value; especially when you compare their behavior with Biden. That to me is the real issue. I could give a rats ass about Trump, the problem is, it's not about Trump, it's the entire policy and cultural ideals the republican party is structured around. Trump was just an easy target for them to center their hatred.
I agree with you on media bias. The problem is Trump proves them right. He makes their job easy.

Giants fans hate Ray Handley. Jets fans hate Rich Kotite. Trump as the Republican leader is a Handley/Kotite. Republicans should hate him but they don't. That's what's so frustrating. He's like Rich Kotite except the fans love him which means we're stuck with him. As long as he's leading the Republican party the left is going to be running up the score on us.

Thinks about this. Wedge issues are one of the most effective and subtle ways the media manipulates people. Democrats have a much easier time keeping different factions in the tent because they're never asked about things that would cause infighting. Ilhan Omar says something about the Jews and it just gets buried. So no problem for the Dems trying to keep liberal Jews in the tent. For the Republicans it's the opposite. They're always going back and forth trying to pit the different factions against each other.

Now look at Trump. He's a walking wedge issue. The media doesn't have to do anything because he's actively throwing people out of the party. It's a small tent. What's worse is the small tent isn't even conservative. It's basically just a Trump fan club that stands for nothing except supporting Trump's attempts to overthrow the government. Huge government spending is fine as long as Trump is doing the spending.

It's a political loser and even if it weren't I wouldn't want it to win anyway. For a conservative I don't think things have ever been this bleak before.
m121c wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:14 pm Ultraviolet blood irradiation has been around for decades. It is primarily considered a "voodoo" treatment by many doctors, but some continue to study it, others fully believe in it. We research some stupid things. Further, UV light wavelengths are being continually experimented and researched between virologists, physicists, and doctors. I would put it in there with chiropractors, suction cup therapy, and acupuncture honestly. Was it a good thing for Trump to say in a press conference? No. Was it brought up, in context, as if it were an answer to our problems? Not at all.
Politco wrote: Trump spoke about the role he thought disinfectants could play in tackling an infection caused by the virus during a now infamous April 23 briefing. But he didn’t say people should drink bleach.

His comments came after William Bryan, the undersecretary for science and technology at the Department of Homeland Security, presented a study that found sun exposure and cleaning agents like bleach can kill the virus when it lingers on surfaces.

Trump remarked on the effectiveness of those methods and wondered if they could help address infections in the human body.
Here are his full comments:

"A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. (To Bryan) And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting, right?"

He continued.

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful."

Later, Trump clarified his comments after a reporter asked Bryan whether disinfectants could actually be injected into COVID-19 patients.

"It wouldn’t be through injections, almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object."
We can go back and forth about Trump said this, but wait no he actually said THIS, and then I can bring up something about some other politician etc. etc. This started with Dr. Fauci's emails and how they paint a much different picture of his words, the NIH's stances, and what was reported by the news during the early parts of the pandemic. It was predictable Havoc tried to steer the conversation back to his boogieman, but lets keep it on topic now that we cleared the air of this "drinking bleach" narrative.
It's not media bias to laugh at someone who thinks what works on a countertop would work internally. It's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard a president say. I'd have to go digging for house members thinking Guam will tip over to find something comparatively stupid. The reason Fauci is famous is because Trump is such an easy act to follow. Basically all he had to do was sound vaguely professional and he looked like a genius next to Trump.

Fauci doesn't matter. If you're a conservative and you want small government the #1 obstacle to that is Trump.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by DBRider251 »

Racers52 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:11 pm Mainstream media has ZERO accountability for what they report. Non-biased and investigative journalism on TV is pretty much dead.
I love to see the reaction to this was “What about <insert right-leaning news sources>???” Take off the blinders people, realize the news doesn’t do anything but polarize people. Neither side cares about reporting shit anymore, they just want ratings. There’s a reason CNN reported on Trump’s Diet Coke button. It makes no difference if he has it or not, but they made sure to paint it negative because they didn’t like him. Fox is going to do the same thing with the left.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TM_Infidel »

jlv,
If you have an argument to make, make it.
Calling Trump a traitor is like calling Ilhan Omar or Sleepy Joe an American Patriot. A misguided comment far left of conservative.
Turn off the tv & biased social media, research outside the bubble, irrefutable evidence and truth is plentiful and much is happening behind the scenes as the world wakes up. The truth always prevails even though some remain one eyed. True patriots will hold the line. The best is yet to come.

Havoc, you didn't do your homework.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

Oh god! You sound like Mike Lindell. Just keep a lid on it until you actually have something. Dense.
jlv wrote:If it weren't for Havoc I'd have been arguing with the 12 year olds by myself.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by hvpmvp »

TM_Infidel wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:41 am True patriots will hold the line.
The true patriots who fly the confederate flag? :lol:
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

TM_Infidel wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:41 am
jlv,
If you have an argument to make, make it.
Calling Trump a traitor is like calling Ilhan Omar or Sleepy Joe an American Patriot. A misguided comment far left of conservative.
Turn off the tv & biased social media, research outside the bubble, irrefutable evidence and truth is plentiful and much is happening behind the scenes as the world wakes up. The truth always prevails even though some remain one eyed. True patriots will hold the line. The best is yet to come.

Havoc, you didn't do your homework.
Assuming what Trump said was true, did the people who attacked the Capitol do anything wrong?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

DBRider251 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:47 pm
Racers52 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:11 pm Mainstream media has ZERO accountability for what they report. Non-biased and investigative journalism on TV is pretty much dead.
I love to see the reaction to this was “What about <insert right-leaning news sources>???” Take off the blinders people, realize the news doesn’t do anything but polarize people. Neither side cares about reporting shit anymore, they just want ratings. There’s a reason CNN reported on Trump’s Diet Coke button. It makes no difference if he has it or not, but they made sure to paint it negative because they didn’t like him. Fox is going to do the same thing with the left.
Sensationalism. Anything that can drive up ratings and profit is what truly is in control of this country. The polarization is an effect of this.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TM_Infidel »

You are at war by modern day stealth from within and abroad designed to divide and outsmart the gullible. Either some innocent lambs are misled or liberal communists exposed.

Havoc you failed again. A patriot you are not. Its not up to me to educate a lay man. What will you do when AZ flips and the rest follow?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

TM_Infidel wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:21 am You are at war by modern day stealth from within and abroad designed to divide and outsmart the gullible. Either some innocent lambs are misled or liberal communists exposed.

Havoc you failed again. A patriot you are not. Its not up to me to educate a lay man. What will you do when AZ flips and the rest follow?
So you're saying the people attacking the capitol did nothing wrong correct? I actually agree, they were deluded simpletons who were following the logical course of action if Trump's lies were actually true. That's why Trump is responsible for their actions. If the vice president of the US, the US congress, the supreme court of the US, the governors and secretaries of state of GA, MI, WI, AZ and PA, and state courts in AZ, GA, MI, NV, NM, PA and WI all conspired to illegitimately install Joe Biden as president that would be cause for civil war.

So Trump is responsible for the attack, which makes him a traitor against the US and the constitution in my book since I don't believe the conspiracy. But he didn't just betray his own country, he also betrayed his own revolution. He said he'd be there with them but he was nowhere to be seen. He was too much of a coward to take that risk. After it was over he accused them of being antifa. They were doing his bidding. If he had any honor he would have pardoned them and taken responsibility for their actions. Instead he smeared them and let them rot in jail. He's a traitor all around.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Jrife548 »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:24 pm You guys act like Trump was actually doing something about it other than denying it and lying again about what a great job he was doing. You're a little late to the game as we glide into a mask-free 4th of July. You're welcome!
Curious to know if you knew about the vaccine being rolled out initially under trump and not biden?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Pumaxcs »

Since it was originally rolled out by Trump why is it a partisan issue for most Republicans to get the vaccine?
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jlv wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:09 am Pumaxcs would know better than I do.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TM_Infidel »

Conspiracy? ..MSM's go to word when they don't know what else to say. Accusing others of exactly what they are guilty of themselves is their norm, always has been.

Maybe ask the FBI who helped plan what happened at the capitol and who allowed them in, who ignored security warnings in advance. Antifa and paid actors were seen and recorded leading innocent protestors inside not trump. It was a setup, pre planned but somehow that was trumps fault?

Anything to make it look like trumps fault is always the narrative and you bought it? Crying over trump being responsible is like saying jlv is responsible for ddosing in mxs. Impossible.

Trump quashed the violence bcoz he was protecting innocent citizens from the con just like jlv protected his supporters. Trump is far smarter than those with incredibly shallow perceptions. Always let them think they have won. He's not a compromised politician he's a businessman and a leader. Theres a difference. If you think trump is none of that please tell me who you think is or was in your political history.

About 8 states compromised by the corrupt political cabal? Sounds about right Hows that new administration going? The US is under attack, China has weakened you without tanks and ground troops and has your politicians in their pocket but somehow trump is a traitor and thats all that matters? Barking up the wrong tree won't help save the US. This is the mind of a modern day conservative.who refuses to delve any deeper than msm.

The rest of the world knows whats going on, the evidence and alternative news sources outside the bubble are exposing the con on a massive scale.

Do you stand for your constitution, your democracy, western values and freedoms? Do you carry the flag for your forefathers or bend the knee for the opposite?

Follow the money not the illusion.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

TM_Infidel wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:43 am Maybe ask the FBI who helped plan what happened at the capitol and who allowed them in, who ignored security warnings in advance. Antifa and paid actors were seen and recorded leading innocent protestors inside not trump. It was a setup, pre planned but somehow that was trumps fault?
Why did Trump say he would be there with them? Why did he say he loved them during the attack? Did the FBI make him say that? He told lies that led those people to attack, they attacked, and then he betrayed them.

You never answered the question - did they do anything wrong? If you really believe that people across all branches of federal and state government conspired to install an illegitimate president, *you* should have been attacking the capitol. That would be cause for civil war and we're going to get one if we keep entertaining this nonsense.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

Pumaxcs wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:35 pm Since it was originally rolled out by Trump why is it a partisan issue for most Republicans to get the vaccine?
Fundamental differences. I'm going to generalize a lot here, but democrats generally trust the government to be our nanny, protector, and provider. Even when that government is lead by Donald Trump, they still have leaders within they can cling to and trust every word they say. Republicans do not have this outlook. Even IF the government is lead by someone within their party, they still question and skepticisms. Maybe that is off base, maybe not, but that is how I see it.

Trump might have more of a "democrat" like following than any republican in history, so that is still a really great question. I think it comes to down to several reasons:

1. As dangerous and bad a COVID is, the media over played it. I really think the general public, Republicans specifically, think there is at least some sinister and dark motivations for some of the actions that were taken by governors, CDC health officials, the media, Fauci, etc. For this reason, I do not think they fully trust information that is put out by these individuals. I mean the media has been caught in multiple exaggerations and lies over the last year over all of this. Now they are the ones preaching about the vaccine like it's the leader of some new weird hippy cult. If the boy cry's wolf too many times... people just start tuning the boy out.

2. Skepticism on it's effectiveness, long-term outcomes, speed of development, etc. I mean there are legitimate concerns with the vaccine that can't be answered without more and more data. We are that data, and some people just don't want to be apart of that; for them the risk of COVID does not out weigh the potential unknown/known risks of the vaccine.

3. It's a silly reason but with our divided politics, I believe it to be valid.. but I think the worship like push the democrats have with the vaccine has many Republicans make it a partisan issue to not get vaccinated. When an inch is given the mile is take in many peoples minds. It went from promoting being clean and protected to forcing children to wear masks while playing outdoor sports. It went from promoting a vaccine to trying to limit people from getting jobs, travel, and/or getting people fired if they haven't been vaccinated; many pushing for a vaccine passport. I think there are some that think getting the vaccine is only going to embolden that behavior.

4. Location and experience. I also think a majority of republicans live in areas unlike predominately blue areas. Obviously the more blue areas generally are the larger cities and urban life; they saw not only very high spikes in the very beginning, but they also experienced a much different response. Their information sources treat COVID much differently, and their local politicians reacted with much stricter and longer mandates. While the predominately red areas have been less strict, more individualistic, and for that reason I don't think the republican's have lived the same experience as the democrats (broad generalization here). It would be no surprise they not only look at it differently, but they think about it differently. For those in deep blue California, it would be no surprise they are begging people to get the vaccine. They are fighting to get back to normalcy and salvage what they have left of the many businesses and lives destroyed by they state and local governments. Many have been watching the marathon of fear-porn that is their news for over a year. Meanwhile in deep red states, things haven't been that different at all. Many people had the 2 weeks off with the first lockdown, and most returned right back to work. Heck, unless they dealt with the public, many of them unmasked if they desired.

Interested in hearing what you think.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Pumaxcs »

First and foremost, thank you. You are the only one here defending Trump with an explanation and I appreciate it. Even if we aren't going to change each other's minds on subjects, having some sort of base frame of mind to the decision is helpful. I don't like to comment on this thread and even that one I did I wasn't thrilled with myself for doing so. Mostly because I don't want to sound like the cheerleader behind JLV who is actually making points. Since you took the time to write all that I'll give back.

Your fundamentals I agree with. Typically Democrats prefer larger government oversight in comparison to Republicans. I think it's a little washy when it comes to how Republicans want a deregulated government but that's a different topic.

1. Personally, when the vaccines were first announced I was happy to hear but then out of nowhere this "Trump's policies made the vaccines possible", "The vaccine was made in Germany and had nothing to do with Trump." Who gives a shit? Could his policies have made other countries act as aggressively? Maybe or maybe not. I just assumed that giving Trump credit would make Republicans more accepting of it but then they started to overthink it and we have the "5G microchips and magnetism" theories. I don't for a second think most people believe that either but of course you only hear the crazies. Anyways, while I agree there could be a media bias towards pushing the vaccine I also see conservative media being the ones to push headlines like how dangerous the vaccine has the potential to be. It plays directly into their skepticism about Covid and how quickly this new drug was produced with now and added benefit, Bidens vaccine rollout numbers are going to fall short.

2. I somewhat covered that in my last sentences but I'll agree with some degree here again. If the vaccine wasn't free, and because I work at an Air Base I didn't have to drive to a mass administering site I just walked a block to the on-base hospital, I'd have a lot more thinking if I wanted it or not. I believe I would anyways because of health compromised people I'm often around but these are valid concerns. mRNA vaccines are new and we mass-produced one for a new virus in about a year, on paper I understand how that would cause some hesitancy.

3. I also agree with your premise here, in politics if your opposition likes something, even if it's in your best interest, you are more likely to double think why you would support something they would want. I've not heard or seen anything of the examples you've given but I think its just a hot-button topic to discuss now. It feels weird to me to no longer grab my mask when going in to work or a store and I think once more and more people become comfortable again with the idea of being maskless the worry about who got vaccinated will go away with it. What I hated most about this point (not aimed at you) was the sudden flip of what a "private business" could do or how it was classified. I know the CDC did put out a mandate for masks but the hostile challenges of people not wearing a mask into places that clearly stated it was required to enter was just so weird to witness.

4. I have also seen and dealt with this one a bunch personally. Being from KY/TN to then working in Nashville when this started to now St Louis, the majority of what I've seen compared to what my family has seen is not even remotely close. When this started and just before I was sent to work from home I was walking from the work parking lot to the building with a mask on and a woman in a truck yelled "coward" at me. My stepmom works as a nurse in smaller rural hospitals/clinics and was borderline anti-science because there was all this talk of Covid but she never had any patients for it. Meanwhile, my aunt on the other side of the family worked in a Nashville hospital that turned part of the parking garage into a Covid ward because they had so much overflow. My grandfather was hospitalized for Covid, he was mostly ok through that but later died in the hospital before leaving due to a urinary infection. While upsetting sure, the part that hurt more was later hearing my dad talking to the nurses to make sure his death papers didn't say he died of Covid because he didn't want his Dad to be a statistic against Trump.

That probably got too personal but the point remains. Yes, I agree with your take. The lens on how people have seen this past year could be very different based on essential worker/remote work or city/country living.
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jlv wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:09 am Pumaxcs would know better than I do.
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