Game Suggestions

[crmx913]

I took a look at this game about a week and a half ago and was amazed at the progress that has happened since the initial demo was released way back when. After drooling over several videos for a day or two I bought the game. Initially I was very frustrated with it, as many people are, but I've since started getting the hang of it...still crash several times per lap but I'm getting better. I do have some MAJOR gripes with the game though. Lets face it, the physics need a lot of work as stated several times by Motoboss.

Something needs to be done about recovering from a crash. About 75% of the time after I crash it takes me forever to get back going straight again on the track, most of the time crashing again because the steering just keeps going back and forth until I loop out or high side. I run stability around 80 now and have decent control over the bike, but when I venture further down into the 60's range to try and get better it just frustrates me so much I have to go back up to 80 or I'll punch a hole in my monitor. I understand that lowering the stability is, predictably, going to make the bike less stable BUT it is just ridiculous to try and get going again after the inevitable crashes that occur from slow speed starts.

I think JLV has a great start here with his game and a strong following, but this community's attitude somewhat scares me. So many people pick up the demo try it out, crash forever and quit playing out of pure frustration. From what I've noticed when they come asking for help most of the more senior players of the game just scoff at them and say "Practice more and stop crying this is a real MX game not some arcade POS." It's very difficult to expand and bring more people into this game, which is ultimately what you would want I assume, when the physics are so broken and very few people offer help to those in need.

TLDR version:
Physics need A LOT of work, mainly in the cornering department
Community needs to offer more help to new people, other than telling them practice more and stop whining!

Don't get me wrong I really love playing this game, feels like riding for real it just frustrates me a lot at the same time and I'd like to see it progress and be more accessible to more people.

CRMX913

[karlwb]

new players do gripe about the difficulty,everyones been there, you'll realise just how good the physics are as you progress

[epik]

Im not a new player, I think the physics are still alittle weird.I stick with it because it is better than anything elese and I know the game is far from finished. Most of the guys here want the game to stay the way it is (look at the bitching when the new rider movements came out) because they have put the time in and look like rockstars compaired to noobs, wich I think is a step in the wrong direction. I am all for having a challenging game ( I think thats why we are all here) but the way it is now, it does not ride like a real bike. Do you need to constantly countersteer your real bike thru all(key word) the corners? or go into a tight rut and jack the haldbars in the oppist direction? I think motoboss said jlv has to many "yes men" on this topic and he isnt going to fix it with that mentality.

[jlv]

You should try turning "Leveling" down to 0 in the hidden settings menu. That controls how much the bike wants to level itself. At 0 it won't do it all so the bike will fall into the turns easier with just a tiny countersteer on entry. The tradeoff is you will have to work harder to keep the bike level.

[ShackAttack12]

PREPARE TO READ MY BOOK ON MX THEORY

As it probably seems by now, I am more scientific than anything (being a Senior Biology major in college and all)....
People are complaining that the physics are not right. So let's talk about what you guys think "is right".

I personally think the physics right now are pretty darn good, much better than any other mx game (go ahead, try to prove that wrong). How can you people say that "right now, the bike does not ride correctly"?????? Honestly, what is your rational explaination for saying that? How do YOU think a bike should act?

First i want to mention the problem with crashing. I think the current system is just fine considering our rider doesnt fly off the bike yet. Think about the series of events that would happen in real life.

In short:
1. Front end washes out, you dump the bike, your body falls with it. (Hopefully you didnt hurt yourself, or bump head, get knocked out, whatever.)
2. You have to get yourself out from under the bike.
3. You get back on your feet, bend down and grab underneath the bike.
4. You lift the bike up.
5. You jump back on the bike (hopefully its still running).
6. Ride away.

This takes AT LEAST 8 seconds if you get right back on your feet and the bike is still running.

Example A: I counted 5 seconds from crash to the guy getting his bike standing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-GJKF6RRIU

Example B: Chad reed dumps his bike, takes him 5 seconds from crash to getting the bike standing....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy179oGIvAE

Example C: here is what happens if you are lazy and out of shape.... 15 seconds until the honda rider gets his bike up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qYyI4MUgqs

Example D: Here is a helmet cam shot of a guy crashing in first corner.... count the seconds it takes from crash to him riding away....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc3TMrb9tYE

I think the problem you guys have is you all have NO PATIENCE!!! Wasting 5 seconds of your gameplay makes you want to punch through the monitor.... Crashing sucks, but it realistically takes time to recover!!! Deal with it!

On to bike and rider motion.....

Last time i checked, MXS bikes act almost like a real bike would... And i say "almost because its never going to be perfect. On a real bike, after a certain speed (mainly, above the speed where your momentum keeps you upright) you turn the handbars in the opposite direction to initiate a turn. This leans the bike over. The only time you need to turn the bars in the direction of the turn is to prevent yourself from falling over. Good? good.......

The only thing that MXS is currently missing in the stability department is for the rider to have free motion. IE: not being stuck straight on top of the bike... which would solve a lot of "problems" the complainers seem to be having. Lets face it... making the leg stick out alone without addressing rider motion is not going to help much at all! Going around flat corners,you would weight the outside peg, inside leg is straight forward with the toe pointed, and you are seated up against your gas tank. And lets keep in mind, you really dont "HANG" off your bike except for extreme cases.... its only a couple of degrees to try to perpendiculate the surface which the tires are touching. Also, how much the rider leans varies on how you want the bike to act. You lean into a turn to get the bike to turn in, you lean away from a turn to fight the turning in of the bike. Also, you can control the traction on the rear tire by leaning.... so leaning into a turn (with respect to the perpendicular line) will allow the back end to come out a bit, and vise versa. Right? ok...

Lets first look at flat corners....

Example A: Rider is shifted maybe 3-4 inches to the left, right foot straight out, outside peg weighted. Inside arm is straight and outside arm is bent. The rider looks to be almost perpendicular to the surface the tire is touching.... thats how it should be.


Example B: Ricky doing the same thing as above. This is a flat corner. Ricky's left ass cheek is offcentered to the ride side of the seat, his right foot weighting the peg, left foot out front and pointed. Notice his upper body position in relation to the ground. It is not perfectly perpendicular to the ground, but he is leaning toward perpendicular.


How does your position change in berms? Well, if you are going to turn in real sharp, or "square up" a berm, you sort of lay the bike down a bit. However, if you rail a berm, your body is generally nuetral on the bike. This makes sense because your tires are more perpendicular to the surface they are touching, and you are mostly using the curve of the berm to turn the bike.... like riding a laid over half pipe in a sense....

Example C: This rider is obviously taking the berm at a medium rate of speed. How can i tell? I can tell because his leg is way out to the left of the bike, and his body is leaned off to the right a little. He has to do this to fight his bike wanting to fall over.


Example D: Chad Reed.... obviously railing a berm. Look how his body is more centered on the bike, leaning forward a bit. His right leg is not out front because he doesnt really need that extra help, the berm is providing the force to keep his bike upright.


Example E: Here is an example of Reedy squaring up a berm. Looks similar to a flat turn doesnt it? Difference here is that the berm allows for extra lean.


So how can JLV implement free rider motion? Well, it definately is not going to be easy. For one, we already have enough controls to deal with. Having to control rider motion will give keyboarders carpal tunnel, and gamepadders extra sore thumbs. I think JLV will have to come up with a way that the rider automatically reads the angle of the ground, and adjusts his body accordingly. It would have to coincide with the turning input in some way. For example, pressing the left button would turn handlebars right, and maybe make the rider initially lean left until the bike reaches a certain lean angle. Then the rider will shift his position right a bit after the bike crosses that certain lean angle. The slower the bike is going, the more the rider lean, because at slower speeds you need more action to keep the bike upright.

[JohnnyMac]

SUGGESTIONS:

First person camera stability/damping
I really like and prefer first person view but on these rougher tracks and in whoop sections the camera shakes way too much. On rough tracks its all most unbearable, which sucks considering I like the challenge of them. The rider has his own "suspension" if you will with the arms and neck to give the view of the rider stability in these rough sections. I guess a start would be damping the rotations along the camera axis to look up/down. Something configurable and can be enabled/disabled would make everyone who likes/dislikes it happy.
Example of a smooth helmet cam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkMAzfno ... re=related

Single Player Points Series Races
First, I am getting lag on the last lap when I race in the points series races. I have I believe 10 riders total (9 AI). Why only towards end of the last lap??? Anyways, I would like to be able to modify how many AI riders I go against in the series, as in reduce/increase numbers. I dont see that option anywhere.

Traction -
Thank you shackattack for that post on rider lean. I think what you put out there was intelligent and a very helpful suggestion that would benefit everyone (especially us noobs). I know I'll get banished to noob kingdom for this but I would like to add to what you suggested with rider lean, and put out that tire TRACTION, or a lack of in some cases, might be playing a role in stability "issues" for noobs. A no duh comment here but I have a lot less frustrations on terrain with higher traction values.

To me it feels like there is two issues. One is a general lack of traction in the tires, and the other is lack of traction along the sides of the tires (knobbies wrap around tire, not just at bottom). Examples of general lack of traction include: grass, slopes, grassy slopes, and cant pop wheelie as I lean back with full throttle and clutch dumped. Examples of lack of traction along sides of tires include: slipping out on corners (especially flat corners), hitting inside slope of a rut (even just a hair), and similarly hitting a change an immediate change in slope of opposite horizontal direction.

Thank you for listening JLV

[DJ99X]

There are changes I plan on making that will affect cornering. The current traction is done with Coulumb friction. That is close to correct for dry sliding surfaces like concrete, pavement or hardpacked dirt. When the tires actually dig into the dirt there is a viscous drag effect that isn't modeled with the current traction system. In future versions it will be possible to give a different coefficient of friction for each slip rate. That will allow for much closer modeling of softer soils. That should help prevent the unexpected washouts because it will slip some before it gives out entirely.

Point Series Races - I figured out how to make your own series a while back, i never posted anything because i didn't think anyone still raced AI. Here is the layout (Things between * are descriptions, don't include in file).

Code: Select all

"DJ's Series"  *Name of series, must have " *

14 *number of riders*
Expert *difficulty 
235 52 151 64 150 153 11 45 59 33 60 363 222 42 *Rider numbers, must place 14 numbers in this case*

5 *Number of rounds*

"Round 1 - Old Goldberry" *Round name*
oldgoldberry *round track, folder name must be used*
0 2 * time, laps *

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22
21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 *Gates that can be used*

25 22 20 18 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0  *Scoring*

"Round 2 - Smithtown" 
smithtown
0 2 

40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22
21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

25 22 20 18 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

*etc, for 5 tracks*

This is saved as whatever.series into the series folder

[jlv]

The problem with making the rider lean side to side is it distorts your sense of balance. In real life your inner ear lets you feel your angular acceleration almost instantly. In the game you have to do that all visually which take much longer for your brain to process. When you let the rider move around like that you pretty much lose your sense of balance since 'up' is no longer in line with the tires. It gets to where there are just too many variables to consider when you have to make a split second decision.

[Voutare]

I agree. That's why videogames are always dumbed down.


A lot of people say "Make it uber realistic." and eventually you get to the point where your best option is to go out and do it in the real world.

EDIT:

Same with tirewide ruts, jumps, breaking bumps, huge hills. Not everything works.



Cornering ruts.

Why don't these work? Well, it's too damn hard to place your bike in these things in a videogame. I've never stacked hitting ruts in real life like I have in MXS. It's not because the physics are fucked, it's because it's a videogame.



Jumps:

Why does that huge jump feel tiny in MXS? No fear. Fear is a pretty masssive part of MX. Without it, you are just cruising around.

Breaking Bumps:

Well, hit them in real life like you do in MXS. Tell me how it works out. Again, no fear, no sense of 'better slow down or I'll put my face into that rock". Sometimes slower is faster, but in MXS, you can't die and get hurt, so it's faster is faster, but it's also more risky. Which is why I prefer smoother tracks. They are more realistic in a sence. Not physically, but mentally they are.

[DJ99X]

Thats why we need to be connected to some sort of electric shock system. I doubt anyone will be overjumping then

[Voutare]

Or going for things that shouldn't happen.


Maybe a much larger crash penalty?


If you bottom out your body, and wreck 5th pinned, it should be X times worse than bottoming out your body in 1st gear. Similar to underjumping. If you come to a stop on landing, it'll be more of a ball buster than if you case it say, 1st gear Sx rhythm section.

[Motoboss]

I know what would solve most peoples problems
Make a Topic and STICKY it of what each adjustment in the menus do .... The pros and cons of each
I know I dont understand what alot of the adjustments do and that goes for the hidden menu also
This way people would know how to set up there bike instead of geussing
The game does not come with directions

[DJD]

ooooh!!.........that makes me feel tingly inside.......

But i agree 100% on this one......a video game can only go so far......and considering that.......this is a badass Motocross game.....

[rgaede]

Ditto, you can only go so far w/ making a game realistic before you run into the problem of not bieng able to sence where you are/what's happening.

And voutare that pic is making me drool. Looks like the dirt out here the day after a rain...*drool*

[stocksy129]

THIS IS REALLY STARTING TO GET ON MY NERVE! JLV YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING!
ok, when ever i land on my front wheel the slightest bit with out the rear wheel being on the ground the front just gives in and washes out, making you go crazy flipping every where, it's really starting to piss me off! is any one else noticing it? this is the only fault i have, i want to throw my computer through a window because of it lol, any way i hope you think about what i have said
thanks