What is changed/improved in the full version?

[AlonditeMX]

I just downloaded the demo, and I've been playing it just about all day. I'm still not great (managed a 1:31 lap on the 2nd demo track who's name eludes me), but I'm starting to get the hang of the engine. I've been browsing around the boards, and by the sounds of things there have been some improvements made to the full version that aren't in the demo. I'm just curious how much better the full version is, and what exactly has been improved/changed.

This really is an amazing piece of work, and done by one guy! I'm really amazed at how ambitious this project is, but I judging by the demo, I just can't find a way to justify spending $40+ to purchase the full version. I can buy Excitebike 64 used for like $4 and still have an incredibly well-playing, (though not sim-real) enjoyable MX game. I'm a bit worried that this project is a bit TOO ambitious for just one person. Personally I would think about maybe enlisting some help. I would be more than happy to, but unfortunately I don't really have any programming knowledge. However I will give some of my thoughts on how to improve the game. I've only played the game for like 6-8 hours or so, but I know game design and I do know a bit about riding, so I can say that there are some things (at least in the demo) that need some work. Again, I know this is a 1-man job, but these are just suggestions of things to do eventually.

Weight. The bikes feel almost feather-light. The slightest bump throws the bike spinning out of control, which really shouldn't happen. Bike and rider, you're looking at -at least- 375 lbs. It gives the feeling that the bikes are gliding, or floating on top of the track, rather than biting into the dirt, and it makes small bumps throw the whole bike way out of whack, when usually just the back end would kick around a bit, if that. Collisions are also a bit wonky, but I heard that's been fixed, or at least made better.

Bike power. Having realistic power curves is awesome (are there torque curves too? If not that would be something to add), but it's tough to really -feel- that power. I love the feeling of laying on the throttle coming out of a corner and having the bike just bite and take off. The game does a pretty good job, but it feels like the bikes are spinning constantly, and that the power isn't really getting to the ground. More roost would help too.

Track Deformation. I know that the game has this, which is an absolutely -awesome- feature. I've never seen another MX game do this. This is one of the premier features of this game in my opinion, and should get a lot of attention to make as realistic as possible. It's great as-is, but it's not perfect. The ruts only seem to develop if you sit and spin in an area, and they develop holes more than ruts. I come around a corner on the last lap of a race with 19 other bikes, and instead of a rut, there's a little hole at the end of the corner that throws my bike into a helicopter spin. Ruts should develop easier to an extent. I've seen cpu bikes get stuck on the fact of a jump and then dig themselves into a giant hole and end up stuck there. This should not happen, but surface ruts should develop easily. I'd like to see some nice deep ruts develop in corners, common lines where riders are accelerating hard, but I'd also like to see some minor ruts develop on straights, and some ruts develop on the face of jumps.

Bike suspension. I feel like the suspension is more for an aesthetic effect, and doesn't really do a whole bunch. It's nice the see the bike lurch back when accelerating, and nose down when you grab the front brake, but in terms of absorbing bumps and landing it doesn't seem like the suspension is doing anything. Even the smallest bump throws your balance way out of whack, and can even send you flipping out of control. The suspension should really soak up a lot more than it does.

Leaning. Ok, this is a biggie. The leaning mechanic is the core of the game, but I feel like it's also the area that needs the most work. I've heard that the full game allows you to lean forward and back, which addresses the main issue (this should really be included in the demo. The demo should still -play- like the full version, just not have all of the content and features). First of all, the bike is -way- too unstable. I was playing at 60 stability and had to adjust to keep the bike upright going -straight-. A bike in motion with automatically stay upright, like how if you jump off it will keep rolling without you to balance it. 0% stability should be an optimal, though expert setting, where the bike leans and falls faster, but not too easily. The bikes also wash out too easily...it's liking riding with slicks. The front tire should bite much better, but the back is almost too tight at times. The back tire should bite coming out of ruts and whatnot, but around flats it should kick out a bit, which will bring me to another point a bit later. The bike also falls too easily. I've come around a corner through a deep rut almost dragging the bars in the dirt and the bike still feels balanced. A bike will naturally lean into a rut, and as long as you keep it moving it won't fall over unless you make it fall. You should be able to lean deeper without falling so easily. The balance and leaning mechanic is great, but maintaining balance on a real bike is nowhere near that hard. I feel like it would take longer to get good at this game than it would to get good on a real bike. Also, when you hit a berm, even when you aren't going that fast, the bike just slides up over the berm. A real bike will slam into the berm, the suspension will soak up the impact, and then you'll slingshot out. I also get a sense that the center axis of the bike, the point at which it turns and rotates is at the center of the bike, rather than the front tire and the top of the forks (the bars), and on top of the already light and slippery physics, it -really- makes it seem like you're riding a supermoto bike that can't steer. The axis that the bike pivots on, as well as where it feels "centered" is located at the bars, and direction is determined by the front tire, but in the game it feels like the rider is the pivot-point. The bikes should feel a lot heavier and grippier than they do, they feel very slippery and light, and they shouldn't be so prone to just flipping out of control with the slightest mistake. Bikes are very good at correcting themselves. The back end will slide out and kick all over the place, but as long as the front tire is planted and going straight, you'll stay upright and keep going straight. Sitting should also have a more pronounced effect on both accelerating and turning. You should be able to turn with the rear tire if you want, but I feel like there's no natural-feeling way to do so. Riding has a very natural, rhythmic feeling, but the game feels like a constant struggle to maintain balance, make a turn or even land a jump.

That covers the major points. I would also consider improving rider animations, to make them look like they are more reacting more realistically to the bike, and maybe just add to the interface some. Those are finer touches though, and are really just for polish. I know it sounds like I'm really ragging on the game, but I'm not. I really like the project, and think it's a really great piece of work that is quite enjoyable to play. The fact that it is the work of one person is incredible. However, if you can address some of these issues, this game has serious publishing potential, which would push the potential for the game through the roof. I hope you take my suggestions seriously, and don't take my criticism to hard, because I just want this game to be as big a success as it can be, and I think it can be hugely successful, and could potentially turn into a very big, and very profitable project for you. At this point though, I just can see spending over $40 for it. It still lacks the necessary polish and features for a full-price game, and with only one developer at the helm, I feel like it's just too big and ambitious, and I'm worried about how much progress it's going to make. It's easy for one person to give up when trying to tackle something of this magnitude, but I -really- hope you keep with it, and maybe find some talented people to help you out, and keep this project progressing quickly. If the game sees some significant progress, I -will- buy the full version...heck, if I have some extra money I might buy it anyway just because I'm a huge MX fan who's been dying for a good MX sim. You've got quite a few hardcore followers here, so keep up the good work!

[DJ99X]

Weight. The bikes feel almost feather-light. The slightest bump throws the bike spinning out of control, which really shouldn't happen. Bike and rider, you're looking at -at least- 375 lbs. It gives the feeling that the bikes are gliding, or floating on top of the track, rather than biting into the dirt, and it makes small bumps throw the whole bike way out of whack, when usually just the back end would kick around a bit, if that. Collisions are also a bit wonky, but I heard that's been fixed, or at least made better.

The bike weight is correct. Even where the weight is distributed is correct.

Bike power. Having realistic power curves is awesome (are there torque curves too? If not that would be something to add), but it's tough to really -feel- that power. I love the feeling of laying on the throttle coming out of a corner and having the bike just bite and take off. The game does a pretty good job, but it feels like the bikes are spinning constantly, and that the power isn't really getting to the ground. More roost would help too.

Power can be calculated from torque. The 'spinning constantly' feeling might be fixed when JLV programs a better friction system. I agree with the roost. It also needs to be a part that can be changed by the track maker

Track Deformation. I know that the game has this, which is an absolutely -awesome- feature. I've never seen another MX game do this. This is one of the premier features of this game in my opinion, and should get a lot of attention to make as realistic as possible. It's great as-is, but it's not perfect. The ruts only seem to develop if you sit and spin in an area, and they develop holes more than ruts. I come around a corner on the last lap of a race with 19 other bikes, and instead of a rut, there's a little hole at the end of the corner that throws my bike into a helicopter spin. Ruts should develop easier to an extent. I've seen cpu bikes get stuck on the fact of a jump and then dig themselves into a giant hole and end up stuck there. This should not happen, but surface ruts should develop easily. I'd like to see some nice deep ruts develop in corners, common lines where riders are accelerating hard, but I'd also like to see some minor ruts develop on straights, and some ruts develop on the face of jumps.

The way tracks are made is by using a 1025x1025 pixel image. The normal scale for tracks is 2 feet/pixel. Its hard to get good ruts formed by erosion. Also, more roost would help, as it is one of the features erosion relies on.

Bike suspension. I feel like the suspension is more for an aesthetic effect, and doesn't really do a whole bunch. It's nice the see the bike lurch back when accelerating, and nose down when you grab the front brake, but in terms of absorbing bumps and landing it doesn't seem like the suspension is doing anything. Even the smallest bump throws your balance way out of whack, and can even send you flipping out of control. The suspension should really soak up a lot more than it does.

The suspension most definitely works. Its also adjustable in the full version.

Leaning. Ok, this is a biggie. The leaning mechanic is the core of the game, but I feel like it's also the area that needs the most work. I've heard that the full game allows you to lean forward and back, which addresses the main issue (this should really be included in the demo. The demo should still -play- like the full version, just not have all of the content and features). First of all, the bike is -way- too unstable. I was playing at 60 stability and had to adjust to keep the bike upright going -straight-. A bike in motion with automatically stay upright, like how if you jump off it will keep rolling without you to balance it. 0% stability should be an optimal, though expert setting, where the bike leans and falls faster, but not too easily. The bikes also wash out too easily...it's liking riding with slicks. The front tire should bite much better, but the back is almost too tight at times. The back tire should bite coming out of ruts and whatnot, but around flats it should kick out a bit, which will bring me to another point a bit later. The bike also falls too easily. I've come around a corner through a deep rut almost dragging the bars in the dirt and the bike still feels balanced. A bike will naturally lean into a rut, and as long as you keep it moving it won't fall over unless you make it fall. You should be able to lean deeper without falling so easily. The balance and leaning mechanic is great, but maintaining balance on a real bike is nowhere near that hard. I feel like it would take longer to get good at this game than it would to get good on a real bike. Also, when you hit a berm, even when you aren't going that fast, the bike just slides up over the berm. A real bike will slam into the berm, the suspension will soak up the impact, and then you'll slingshot out. I also get a sense that the center axis of the bike, the point at which it turns and rotates is at the center of the bike, rather than the front tire and the top of the forks (the bars), and on top of the already light and slippery physics, it -really- makes it seem like you're riding a supermoto bike that can't steer. The axis that the bike pivots on, as well as where it feels "centered" is located at the bars, and direction is determined by the front tire, but in the game it feels like the rider is the pivot-point. The bikes should feel a lot heavier and grippier than they do, they feel very slippery and light, and they shouldn't be so prone to just flipping out of control with the slightest mistake. Bikes are very good at correcting themselves. The back end will slide out and kick all over the place, but as long as the front tire is planted and going straight, you'll stay upright and keep going straight. Sitting should also have a more pronounced effect on both accelerating and turning. You should be able to turn with the rear tire if you want, but I feel like there's no natural-feeling way to do so. Riding has a very natural, rhythmic feeling, but the game feels like a constant struggle to maintain balance, make a turn or even land a jump.

The physics are quite different in the full version. I do think that the demo should be updated to include the new physics.

That covers the major points. I would also consider improving rider animations, to make them look like they are more reacting more realistically to the bike, and maybe just add to the interface some. Those are finer touches though, and are really just for polish. I know it sounds like I'm really ragging on the game, but I'm not. I really like the project, and think it's a really great piece of work that is quite enjoyable to play. The fact that it is the work of one person is incredible. However, if you can address some of these issues, this game has serious publishing potential, which would push the potential for the game through the roof. I hope you take my suggestions seriously, and don't take my criticism to hard, because I just want this game to be as big a success as it can be, and I think it can be hugely successful, and could potentially turn into a very big, and very profitable project for you. At this point though, I just can see spending over $40 for it. It still lacks the necessary polish and features for a full-price game, and with only one developer at the helm, I feel like it's just too big and ambitious, and I'm worried about how much progress it's going to make. It's easy for one person to give up when trying to tackle something of this magnitude, but I -really- hope you keep with it, and maybe find some talented people to help you out, and keep this project progressing quickly. If the game sees some significant progress, I -will- buy the full version...heck, if I have some extra money I might buy it anyway just because I'm a huge MX fan who's been dying for a good MX sim. You've got quite a few hardcore followers here, so keep up the good work!

Its definitely worth buying this game. Although I do think the price needs to come down a bit. It currently costs $68 dollars here. I bought Battlefield 2142 for $30 a few weeks back. Even GTA4 is selling for about $85 here.

[Rallemx]

68$? I got it for 42$ or 52$..

[DJ99X]

I live in Australia, der. Besides, I got it when our dollar was good, for $48 bucks

[yomo]

yeah same mine was around 48-50 bucks

Anyway it is an absolute awesome game especially with multiplayer, bike and rider models, rider lean and user made tracks.

defiantly the best game i've played because of the fun factor, self accomplishment when you get that "perfect lap" etc etc etc... oh and its so close to real riding

[karlwb]

the difference between demo and full game is light years,you won't be dissapointed,the developer (jlv} is constantly updating,and it just gets better and better. ,
in the full version you have different rider models,rider lean,and a comprehensive set of adjustments you can tweak for the rider,as well as the suspension set-up for the bike,that makes a lotta difference!

[Garasaki]

What an interesting post.

The same guy who goes on and on about how realistic the game is and gives insightful, thoughtful, indepth technical analysis, compares the value of the game against buying excitebike for N64.

Ummmmmmm

It seems to me that this game is for you dude, but the price is the price. Gotta pay the cost to be the boss, ya know?

The suspension is adjustable in the full version and that helps out a lot with many of your comments.

[AlonditeMX]

The bike weight is correct. Even where the weight is distributed is correct.

But does the engine consider the riders weight too, or is it based solely on bike weight? Also does it take into consideration the rider's shift in weight as well? My guess is no, since the riders don't move a whole bunch.

As for referencing Excitebike, it was merely as a price-point comparison. Excitebike isn't the most sim-like MXer out there, but it's probably the deepest, best playing MX game ever made. In fact, it's one of the most polished racers. period. All that for $4 is a pretty sweet deal.

Also, my original intention was to merely explain why I'm not quite ready to buy the full version, but I think I'll copy the suggestion stuff over to the other topic, since it seems to get a lot of views.

[Turbine951]

As for referencing Excitebike, it was merely as a price-point comparison. Excitebike isn't the most sim-like MXer out there, but it's probably the deepest, best playing MX game ever made. In fact, it's one of the most polished racers. period.

??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Garasaki]

But does the engine consider the riders weight too, or is it based solely on bike weight? Also does it take into consideration the rider's shift in weight as well? My guess is no, since the riders don't move a whole bunch.

The full version does consider the riders shift in weight. And whilst I don't know for sure, I believe the physics engine considers the riders weight EDIT and where it is placed, in a real time manner.

I can respect your opinion regarding Excitebike for N64. I do not share the same thoughts.

I also believe a comparison between a 8 year old (?) game for an outdated console and what is far and away the most cutting edge MX game ever made is not an effective vehicle to present your thoughts on the pricing structure of this product.

[Garasaki]

Also, my original intention was to merely explain why I'm not quite ready to buy the full version, but I think I'll copy the suggestion stuff over to the other topic, since it seems to get a lot of views.

Oh and for that one...

Give it time

[AlonditeMX]

but that fact is, MX Sim is very incomplete, and unpolished at this point. It may be cutting-edge for an MX game, but it's far from cutting edge in terms of electronic entertainment, so giving it a full price point just doesn't seam feasible at this point. Also, regarding Excitebike, I think I should clarify, because I may have come off differently than I intended to.

I did not mean to say that Excitebike is a better representation of Motocross than MX Sim, but simply that it is complete, and quite frankly more fun than MX Sim at this point. It doesn't have the most realistic physics (though it does have a nice weighty, grippy feel and rhythmic jumping/landing), but it does what it does extremely well, has interesting, varied tracks layouts and locales, variation between riders, and incredible depth in it's engine, which focuses on balancing speed and rhythm. I was judging it based on it's merit as a game, it's entertainment value, not as a MX sim.

[DJ99X]

It may be cutting-edge for an MX game, but it's far from cutting edge in terms of electronic entertainment, so giving it a full price point just doesn't seam feasible at this point.

Thing is, JLV is constantly upgrading it, free of charge. I king of like it, it feels like christmas when he releases a major update.

Also, with the rider weight, in the full version, you are able to adjust where the rider's mass is positioned.

[Garasaki]

I was judging it based on it's merit as a game, it's entertainment value, not as a MX sim.

The criteria "merit as a game" and "entertainment value" are 100% subjective. And, my personal opinion is that MXS is cutting edge electronic entertainment - but that is a subjective statement too, I suppose.

If you do not find it entertaining, then you would be quite silly to spend money to buy it.

Those of us who choose to spend the money to buy it, I must assume, find it quite entertaining.

I judge from your comments thus far that you have never played a PC MX game before. The great thing about PC MX games is they allow user created content. Your comments about Excitebike "ha(ving) interesting, varied tracks layouts and locales, variation between riders," reveal that you must be unfamiliar with the 1000's of tracks, gear skins, bike skins, etc that are available for the average PC MX game.

For MX Sim, for instance, there have been a number of new rider models and new bike models, nevermind things such as new helmets, wheel's, or track objects, created by the community.

I can guarentee you that Excitebike does not allow you to IMPORT NEW MODELS into the engine. Honestly just think about what that means in terms of the "depth" of the game.

While you are thinking of that, think about what it means to be constantly be receiving new tracks for the game.

Then think about what online multiplayer means to the "depth" of the game.

All in all, I'm not sure how a person could argue that "Excitebike" provides a more in depth gaming experience, from any perspective. If you think it's fun, that's cool - I played it for a while back in college myself. I must say I considered it a joke compared to MCM2 - which is 3 generations old compared to MXS. But that was my opinion.

I think if you gave MXS a chance, you might end up thinking it's fun too. It certainly has more possibility then Excitebike. You probably didn't think Excitebike was THAT great the first time you played it, did you??

[Netdemon01]

but that fact is, MX Sim is very incomplete, and unpolished at this point. It may be cutting-edge for an MX game, but it's far from cutting edge in terms of electronic entertainment, so giving it a full price point just doesn't seam feasible at this point. Also, regarding Excitebike, I think I should clarify, because I may have come off differently than I intended to.

So you would rather pay a few bucks now, and then be forced to pay another few bucks for each update that is released? For one, that would be annoying for the user. For another, that would be annoying and hard to keep track of for jlv of who paid how much and when for which release. It is MUCH simpler to just pay a one lump sum (a measley US $40-50) and receive continous updates and feedback from the sole creator of the game.

]it's far from cutting edge in terms of electronic entertainment

A statement like this is purely opinionated. For me, and many many many people this game is tons of entertainment. The fact that both multiplayer servers are full nearly 24 hours a day now are proof.