John_Versus-PC wrote:
Let me learn you some physics knowledge there Ghostrider, ill put this in layman's terms as to not confuse you.
A gyro is simply resistant to change, not an auto-leveling, auto centering witchcraft vortex....
If you have a spinning wheel, yes you would have to apply a force to change the axis of rotation, however this has nothing to do with being vertical or leveling. Simply put, the spinning wheel will want to stay in whatever orientation it is currently in. If it is vertical it will resist a change away from vertical in any directions, if it is at 45 degrees it will resist any directional change in the same manner, and so on and so forth for every possible axis of the "spinning wheel."
The gyro effect can stabilize the bike because the wheels are connected to the frame and if they resist a change in angle or direction, so will the bike, making it harder to quickly change the lean angle. This effect however is the same regardless of the orientation of the bike. The only way a gyro can be used to level something, say on an airplane or helicopter, is when it is combined with something that measures the gyro's resistance to change, and change from home, and then uses those measurements to determine the input needed to stabilize the aircraft.
Also, caster has nothing to do with a car tracking straight, caster is basically the angle in the hub controlling how much the wheel leans when turned. More caster delivers more dynamic camber, allowing the wheels to lean into the corner increasing grip to a certain point. Getting a car to track straight is a function of toe, camber, and caster would be a secondary factor in that.
The gyro in your ears does NOT help to stabilize your body, the fluid in your ear simply moves depending on the orientation of your body, telling your brain what angle it is tilted at.
At the beginning phases your correct. You are right about the bikes wheels gyro's being a stabilizing affect. But very wrong about caster. Caster IS what keeps a cars tires tracking straight ahead. In nascar they use unequal caster values to correct for the way the camber makes the car pull on the straightaways. Take what you said further, the caster is the angle in the hub making the wheel lean when turned. The wheel doesnt like to be leaned it likes to sit flat due to the massive wieght of the car pushing down on it. This makes the wheel track whatever orientation is making it the most flat. Since you have two of them and typically (unless your diving a nas-tard) the alignment is symmetrical. Thus straight ahead will be the most flat and turning either way will be not as flat. Thus, the caster is what makes the cars steering wheel "autocenter" to whatever direction the front tires are pointed straight ahead at. I develop ffb physics for rfactor. This (along with pneumatic trail data) is the input for the steering arms, aka, what you feel in the steering wheel. Put a gyro in conjunction with caster on a single wheel and, OMG look at that, an autocentering/leveling stabilizer. More speed = more stabilizing, more caster = more centering/leveling. Who'd a thunk it. Also the inner ear gyro, it does work by telling your brain about your angle/inertia. Your brain then automatically (you cant possibly do it conciously) uses that data to level your body to keep you balanced. Otherwise walking is impossible. Dont try to school me about stuff that's atleast a decade beneath me.
Minus the bit about caster, you just restated everything that i said... And i stand by my statement, a car tracking straight has nothing to do with caster, unless it is unequal. But varying caster while symmetrical will not effect weather or not the car tracks straight. It does have an effect on steering wheel tracking/ auto center, but that does not have to do with overall track, again, unless the alignment is not symmetrical. When you have two wheels, and only one "caster" block, the effect doesn't exactly translate because there is no possible way they could be asymmetric.
Im glad you have a background with a little programming...Don't be a douche about things you aren't fully accurate on...I spend pretty much 80% of my time that I'm not working, tuning, and setting up race cars. I think you are confusing some various handling components and their dynamic effects. And in nascar they use unequal CASTER to achieve a more equal lean of both tires, since they only turn one direction. If they didn't, the outside tire would lean less than the inside. Nascar uses TOE to correct for the tracking effects of asymmetrical camber.
And I set up drift cars. More caster = more aligning torque on the wheel keeping the wheel pointed the direction the front tires are traveling. Everyone knows this. And I learned to tune on NASCAR and CART cars back in the 90's. NASCAR's use caster unequally to equalise the steering forces. It's impossible to use toe because you cant change the rear toe due to the live axle, and front toe will only affect where the center is in steering rotation, not the "Pull" on the wheel making the car want to turn left all the time. This is because the pneumatic trails will always make the front wheels auto align in the middle of the toe difference IE in or out and adjusting the steering arms both to one direction does nothing but offset the steering wheel center. The same can be achieved by plugging the steering wheel in to the quick release slightly off center, which is how they actually do that since it requires much less work and forethought to get right. To fix the "pull" they use caster. To fix the camber affects you just adjust the camber based on tire temps. You want the left edge 5-10* hotter than the right edge. If the tire psi is correct the middle value will be half way inbetween the two. Atleast this is how they did it when I was into nascar back in the late 90's/early 00's. I quit giving a damn about nascar when that stupid wing thing came out and it became a retarded safety sport. I used to be into F1 untill they decided to be retarded around the same time frame. I LOVED CART back in the 90's when it was lagit. But rally/drifting has always been where my hearts at and where I stay. I run 5.8* caster on my 240sx. This is slightly lower than the 6.2 factory value, but that's because I removed powersteering and 6.2 makes turning the wheel too difficult under load, especially while braking on a downhill, off camber turn and maintaining the drift, go figure right?. 5.8 is still very heavy, but I like having it as heavy as I can stand it because it gives me more usefull input range to feel the front tires with. 3.5 - 4.5 is typically the ideal value in road racing as it provides decent feedback and keeps the camber at a nice level of gain when turning. In drifting we want alot more not only for maximum feedback, but because when you are at opposite lock you want the wheel to be flat and with 3.0* of camber for maximum turn in it takes a minimum of 5.0 caster to even start to achieve this. Most run 7.0-9.0 and I've even seen 12.0 crazily enough.
And honestly, even if we came to an agreement here, it wouldnt matter. JLV isnt going to fix the game because none of the die hard masochist fucking idiotic egomaniacs that are into dirt bikes and particularly this sim would be willing to accept it being any easier because apparently riding a dirt bike is supposed to something similar to punching yourself in the face for hours on end.... Even thought it's not NEARLY as difficult in real life as this game is for the reasons I've stated so thoroughly.
RSmithDRIFT wrote:
And I set up drift cars. More caster = more aligning torque on the wheel keeping the wheel pointed the direction the front tires are traveling. Everyone knows this. And I learned to tune on NASCAR and CART cars back in the 90's. NASCAR's use caster unequally to equalise the steering forces. It's impossible to use toe because you cant change the rear toe due to the live axle, and front toe will only affect where the center is in steering rotation, not the "Pull" on the wheel making the car want to turn left all the time. This is because the pneumatic trails will always make the front wheels auto align in the middle of the toe difference IE in or out and adjusting the steering arms both to one direction does nothing but offset the steering wheel center. The same can be achieved by plugging the steering wheel in to the quick release slightly off center, which is how they actually do that since it requires much less work and forethought to get right. To fix the "pull" they use caster. To fix the camber affects you just adjust the camber based on tire temps. You want the left edge 5-10* hotter than the right edge. If the tire psi is correct the middle value will be half way inbetween the two. Atleast this is how they did it when I was into nascar back in the late 90's/early 00's. I quit giving a damn about nascar when that stupid wing thing came out and it became a retarded safety sport. I used to be into F1 untill they decided to be retarded around the same time frame. I LOVED CART back in the 90's when it was lagit. But rally/drifting has always been where my hearts at and where I stay. I run 5.8* caster on my 240sx. This is slightly lower than the 6.2 factory value, but that's because I removed powersteering and 6.2 makes turning the wheel too difficult under load, especially while braking on a downhill, off camber turn and maintaining the drift, go figure right?. 5.8 is still very heavy, but I like having it as heavy as I can stand it because it gives me more usefull input range to feel the front tires with. 3.5 - 4.5 is typically the ideal value in road racing as it provides decent feedback and keeps the camber at a nice level of gain when turning. In drifting we want alot more not only for maximum feedback, but because when you are at opposite lock you want the wheel to be flat and with 3.0* of camber for maximum turn in it takes a minimum of 5.0 caster to even start to achieve this. Most run 7.0-9.0 and I've even seen 12.0 crazily enough.
And honestly, even if we came to an agreement here, it wouldnt matter. JLV isnt going to fix the game because none of the die hard masochist fucking idiotic egomaniacs that are into dirt bikes and particularly this sim would be willing to accept it being any easier because apparently riding a dirt bike is supposed to something similar to punching yourself in the face for hours on end.... Even thought it's not NEARLY as difficult in real life as this game is for the reasons I've stated so thoroughly.
Are you still here dude?
We have already established that you refuse to change your opinon and listen to other people so why are you still here? You are posting the same thing in multiple threads and NOBODY is on your side if the argument. Ever considered the possibility that the 20+ people here on the forums telling you something else might have a point?
JLV wont fix this game because there is nothing wrong with it. Sure some new features like track deformation and stuff would be nice but its nothing "wrong" with the game as it is.
You seriously think riding a dirtbike in real life is easier than playing this game? So you mean if I just practice for 5-6 months on a dirtbike i can clear 200ft jumps and ride flat out in a whoop section?
Sometimes you just gotta admit that you are wrong and EVERYONE else might be right for once.
We have already established that you refuse to change your opinon and listen to other people so why are you still here? You are posting the same thing in multiple threads and NOBODY is on your side if the argument. Ever considered the possibility that the 20+ people here on the forums telling you something else might have a point?
JLV wont fix this game because there is nothing wrong with it. Sure some new features like track deformation and stuff would be nice but its nothing "wrong" with the game as it is.
You seriously think riding a dirtbike in real life is easier than playing this game? So you mean if I just practice for 5-6 months on a dirtbike i can clear 200ft jumps and ride flat out in a whoop section?
Sometimes you just gotta admit that you are wrong and EVERYONE else might be right for once.
Well, you've come bringing everything I've posted into this all of a sudden havent you?
I came to the conclusion a month or however long it's been ago that it's the tracks that are being made as "replica's" that are at fault here mostly. They are grossly overscaled and WAY too steep to be realistic and it makes it hard to ride realistically with a realistic FOV like I use (90 at most) I found that the rider gyro like what arcade mode uses is great for solving this problem, however arcade mode physics in this game bring their own problem of having rediculous turning physics. I actually think the suspension and turning physics of sim mode are spot on. It's just the fact that the rider doesnt react to jumps in sim mode like he would in arcade mode. He just stays rigid and reacts only to inputs. That's not really right considering I'm using a controller that can only feedback vibration. JLV could EASILY resolve this issue by giving a "jump stabilizer" (aka rider gyro) slider to adjust the value of it from 0 (full current sim mode setting) to 100 (full current arcade mode setting) but as I said, he wont do this.
If the current supercross tracks were actually lazer scanned in it would be quite obvious how wrong and problematic for the games physics they currently are. But you fuckers seem to enjoy turning your FOV so high you have to make the track rediculously out of scale/proportion to make up for it. Which means anyone trying to ride realistically is just fucked with no other option than to turn on arcade mode and deal with it. If I put the FOV over 120 like yall do and run 3rd person I have no problem riding the current tracks. It's when I try to make it suit my simulator at 60 FOV and first person that it becomes literally impossible. You should see how fucking huge the jumps are on these tracks at a proper FOV. You'd shit a brick everytime you approached one.
And maybe I've got an advantage in real life of having grown up racing and street riding BMX and then MTB. But my abilities mean nothing when faced with this game in sim mode at 60* FOV
We have already established that you refuse to change your opinon and listen to other people so why are you still here? You are posting the same thing in multiple threads and NOBODY is on your side if the argument. Ever considered the possibility that the 20+ people here on the forums telling you something else might have a point?
JLV wont fix this game because there is nothing wrong with it. Sure some new features like track deformation and stuff would be nice but its nothing "wrong" with the game as it is.
You seriously think riding a dirtbike in real life is easier than playing this game? So you mean if I just practice for 5-6 months on a dirtbike i can clear 200ft jumps and ride flat out in a whoop section?
Sometimes you just gotta admit that you are wrong and EVERYONE else might be right for once.
Well, you've come bringing everything I've posted into this all of a sudden havent you?
I came to the conclusion a month or however long it's been ago that it's the tracks that are being made as "replica's" that are at fault here mostly. They are grossly overscaled and WAY too steep to be realistic and it makes it hard to ride realistically with a realistic FOV like I use (90 at most) I found that the rider gyro like what arcade mode uses is great for solving this problem, however arcade mode physics in this game bring their own problem of having rediculous turning physics. I actually think the suspension and turning physics of sim mode are spot on. It's just the fact that the rider doesnt react to jumps in sim mode like he would in arcade mode. He just stays rigid and reacts only to inputs. That's not really right considering I'm using a controller that can only feedback vibration. JLV could EASILY resolve this issue by giving a "jump stabilizer" (aka rider gyro) slider to adjust the value of it from 0 (full current sim mode setting) to 100 (full current arcade mode setting) but as I said, he wont do this.
If the current supercross tracks were actually lazer scanned in it would be quite obvious how wrong and problematic for the games physics they currently are. But you fuckers seem to enjoy turning your FOV so high you have to make the track rediculously out of scale/proportion to make up for it. Which means anyone trying to ride realistically is just fucked with no other option than to turn on arcade mode and deal with it. If I put the FOV over 120 like yall do and run 3rd person I have no problem riding the current tracks. It's when I try to make it suit my simulator at 60 FOV and first person that it becomes literally impossible. You should see how fucking huge the jumps are on these tracks at a proper FOV. You'd shit a brick everytime you approached one.
And maybe I've got an advantage in real life of having grown up racing and street riding BMX and then MTB. But my abilities mean nothing when faced with this game in sim mode at 60* FOV
Dude, stop, you're... just... wrong...
And while caster may effect the way the steering wheel rotates back to center, that has LITERALLY nothing to do with the front wheel of a dirtbike.
We have already established that you refuse to change your opinon and listen to other people so why are you still here? You are posting the same thing in multiple threads and NOBODY is on your side if the argument. Ever considered the possibility that the 20+ people here on the forums telling you something else might have a point?
JLV wont fix this game because there is nothing wrong with it. Sure some new features like track deformation and stuff would be nice but its nothing "wrong" with the game as it is.
You seriously think riding a dirtbike in real life is easier than playing this game? So you mean if I just practice for 5-6 months on a dirtbike i can clear 200ft jumps and ride flat out in a whoop section?
Sometimes you just gotta admit that you are wrong and EVERYONE else might be right for once.
Well, you've come bringing everything I've posted into this all of a sudden havent you?
I came to the conclusion a month or however long it's been ago that it's the tracks that are being made as "replica's" that are at fault here mostly. They are grossly overscaled and WAY too steep to be realistic and it makes it hard to ride realistically with a realistic FOV like I use (90 at most) I found that the rider gyro like what arcade mode uses is great for solving this problem, however arcade mode physics in this game bring their own problem of having rediculous turning physics. I actually think the suspension and turning physics of sim mode are spot on. It's just the fact that the rider doesnt react to jumps in sim mode like he would in arcade mode. He just stays rigid and reacts only to inputs. That's not really right considering I'm using a controller that can only feedback vibration. JLV could EASILY resolve this issue by giving a "jump stabilizer" (aka rider gyro) slider to adjust the value of it from 0 (full current sim mode setting) to 100 (full current arcade mode setting) but as I said, he wont do this.
If the current supercross tracks were actually lazer scanned in it would be quite obvious how wrong and problematic for the games physics they currently are. But you fuckers seem to enjoy turning your FOV so high you have to make the track rediculously out of scale/proportion to make up for it. Which means anyone trying to ride realistically is just fucked with no other option than to turn on arcade mode and deal with it. If I put the FOV over 120 like yall do and run 3rd person I have no problem riding the current tracks. It's when I try to make it suit my simulator at 60 FOV and first person that it becomes literally impossible. You should see how fucking huge the jumps are on these tracks at a proper FOV. You'd shit a brick everytime you approached one.
And maybe I've got an advantage in real life of having grown up racing and street riding BMX and then MTB. But my abilities mean nothing when faced with this game in sim mode at 60* FOV
So the guy whose never ridden a supercross or motocross track is telling us how they're not right in sim, makes sense you would shit a brick if you ever rode a supercross track, or rode up the face of laroccos leap. Everything's about 15% upscaled because racing would be shit on a 1:1 scale but they are pretty close.
ryanmx25 wrote:
So the guy whose never ridden a supercross or motocross track is telling us how they're not right in sim, makes sense you would shit a brick if you ever rode a supercross track, or rode up the face of laroccos leap. Everything's about 15% upscaled because racing would be shit on a 1:1 scale but they are pretty close.
Right, thats why your 3,5,3's are actually 5,8,5's and your whoops arent 3foot tall and 7 foot apart but 5 foot tall and 12ft apart. w t f. way to ruin a perfectly good sim. FUCK anyone who supports this upscale bullshit.
you would shit a brick if you ever rode a supercross track, or rode up the face of laroccos leap. Everything's about 15% upscaled because racing would be shit on a 1:1 scale but they are pretty close.
i cant find it here