Kawasakis wrote:And again die.. I bet that like 90% of dirt bike racers won't agree with you on this one again.
I agree with him. Its the future. Once the battery technology catches up with the idea, it'll be an obvious choice. 100% efficient motors, no emissions, cost to "fill up" will be in the cents range rather than a $10.00 range..
We may not like it, but thats how it will be.
Axle McOctane wrote:The day mx goes all electric is the day I hang up my boots. I would prefer the sound of a diesel tractor four-stroke a million times over to a quiet electric buzz. I guess you could really yell and talk shit to your competitors though.
Youd really give up motocross because of the changing technology? Thats pretty sad, bro.
Short version of Kawasakis, Axle and most arguements against electric-powered vehicles People are AFRAID of change
I don't want an under-powered car/bike but if they get the thing and start making good engines I'm definitely going to love them
When the technology changes enough, it is no longer motocross. In air racing, there are major technological restrictions, and they are flying pretty old-school aircraft with no electronic piloting assistance whatsoever. They are not racing in modern military aircraft.
For everyday transportation, I am all for cheap, efficient engine technology. I think that radically different forms of power generation technology is possible. Try reading up on Nichola Tesla a little bit if you want to have your mind blown. However, in my lifetime, I hope that internal combustion 2-stroke mx bikes remain available, or at least legal, to own as well as race gas and premix oil. What happens when we master hover technology and transporting things with wheels becomes obsolete? Is a hovercraft bike still an mx bike?
Axle McOctane wrote:What happens when we master hover technology and transporting things with wheels becomes obsolete? Is a hovercraft bike still an mx bike?
Torque is the ability for horsepower to do work and without torque you got nothing. This is why the 4 strokes are so much faster the torque comes on sooner. A 250 2 stroke and 250f make around the same peak torque so its more fair. You really cant just base equalness on displacement its irrelevant when talking about different types of motors. Yes 2 strokes fires twice as often but they still are not the same on paper it works for displacement but theres many many factors to take into consideration.
For instance the Mazda 787B motor is 2616cc which is very small displacement for the C class in LeMans (For race cars period). (They said it could make 900hp but for reliabilty it was toned down)
# Maximum Power: 700 hp (520 kW)/9000 rpm
# Maximum Torque: 448 ft·lbf (607 N·m)/6500 rpm
On The Pipe wrote:Torque is the ability for horsepower to do work and without torque you got nothing. This is why the 4 strokes are so much faster the torque comes on sooner. A 250 2 stroke and 250f make around the same peak torque so its more fair. You really cant just base equalness on displacement its irrelevant when talking about different types of motors. Yes 2 strokes fires twice as often but they still are not the same on paper it works for displacement but theres many many factors to take into consideration.
For instance the Mazda 787B motor is 2616cc which is very small displacement for the C class in LeMans (For race cars period). (They said it could make 900hp but for reliabilty it was toned down)
# Maximum Power: 700 hp (520 kW)/9000 rpm
# Maximum Torque: 448 ft·lbf (607 N·m)/6500 rpm
For 2009, the YZ250f made 33.37HP @ 11,900RPM, and 17.43lb-ft @ 8,700RPM
For 2009, the YZ250 made 41.3HP @ 8,400RPM, and 28lb-ft @ 7,600RPM
Looks to me like the YZ250 makes both more HP and TQ @ lower RPM. 10.5lb-ft is alot of difference... especially on a dirtbike.
On The Pipe wrote:Torque is the ability for horsepower to do work and without torque you got nothing. This is why the 4 strokes are so much faster the torque comes on sooner. A 250 2 stroke and 250f make around the same peak torque so its more fair. You really cant just base equalness on displacement its irrelevant when talking about different types of motors. Yes 2 strokes fires twice as often but they still are not the same on paper it works for displacement but theres many many factors to take into consideration.
For instance the Mazda 787B motor is 2616cc which is very small displacement for the C class in LeMans (For race cars period). (They said it could make 900hp but for reliabilty it was toned down)
# Maximum Power: 700 hp (520 kW)/9000 rpm
# Maximum Torque: 448 ft·lbf (607 N·m)/6500 rpm
For 2009, the YZ250f made 33.37HP @ 11,900RPM, and 17.43lb-ft @ 8,700RPM
For 2009, the YZ250 made 41.3HP @ 8,400RPM, and 28lb-ft @ 7,600RPM
Looks to me like the YZ250 makes both more HP and TQ @ lower RPM. 10.5lb-ft is alot of difference... especially on a dirtbike.
What is the duration of the TQ and HP on the two stroke? Unless you have a CVT drive system where you can effectively control your RPM's peak numbers mean shit its all about having more useful TQ and HP at all ranges vs a peaky curve..
Yeah i looked at the wrong torque curve i though they both were close 20 ft-lbs :/
But still a 4 stroke torque curve is more flat where as a two stroke is very peaky and only really kicks in a mid to upper rpm.
Which was done to keep up with the ridiculous rule handicap that gives the advantage to four strokes. 2-stroke engine can be built to behave more like a 4-stroke, if one were so inclined.
Those who possess strength have also known adversity.
Hi Im Skyqe wrote:
What is the duration of the TQ and HP on the two stroke? Unless you have a CVT drive system where you can effectively control your RPM's peak numbers mean shit its all about having more useful TQ and HP at all ranges vs a peaky curve..
OTP was talking about peak Torque.
This is completely unrelated to technicality, but lets be serious. What is more fun to ride? a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke? and please give your reasoning.
IMO, a 2 stroke is a hoot to ride. The power is snappy, crisp, and the bike feels super light! not to mention they sound amazing, as opposed to the garden tractorish 4 strokes that everyone is riding.
Look at the MotoGP the same thing happened there twice the displacement and the 500 2 strokes didnt even stand a snowballs chance in hell. The people who created the rules changes have no fucking clue what is even fair. 4 strokes have come a long way in MX push out alot more power than they did back when they first came out.
On The Pipe wrote:Look at the MotoGP the same thing happened there twice the displacement and the 500 2 strokes didnt even stand a snowballs chance in hell. The people who created the rules changes have no fucking clue what is even fair. 4 strokes have come a long way in MX push out alot more power than they did back when they first came out.
MY CHANCE TO SAY SOMETHING USEFUL (I'm a huge MotoGp fan )
500cc GP bikes were easily beaten thanks to their outdated geometry, their lack of traction control and that only 6 top10 riders got them (Rossi, Ukawa, Biaggi, Checa, Roberts Jr and some Suzuki guy... plus Akira Ryo in Suzuka). It was like giving ultralight 500cc bikes to Reed, Stewart, Villopoto, Dungey and Canard
ShackAttack12 wrote:
I can't quite understand why you think efficiency is unimportant. Doesn't efficiency = power (for the most part)? IE: Efficiency is a measure of how well an engine can turn fuel into power. A more efficient engine could be lighter and make the same amount of power.
A Direct Injected 2-stroke engine would be better than a 4-stroke in motocross competition, hands down. Just based on the numbers that were discussed earlier, 2-strokes waste about 30% or so of their potential because some fuel in unburned and passed through the exhaust. Imagine a 2-stroke system that completely eliminates unburned fuel. Instead, all (or a lot more) of the fuel will be converted to power.
Even if a carbied two-stroke wastes 30% of its fuel, the DFI will still only inject 70% of what the carbie puts through. It will burn about the same amount in both cases (a bit more precise with the DFI though). In some instances, it might help with power, but its mainly used to prevent losing unburnt fuel.
Hi Im Skyqe wrote:
What is the duration of the TQ and HP on the two stroke? Unless you have a CVT drive system where you can effectively control your RPM's peak numbers mean shit its all about having more useful TQ and HP at all ranges vs a peaky curve..
OTP was talking about peak Torque.
This is completely unrelated to technicality, but lets be serious. What is more fun to ride? a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke? and please give your reasoning.
IMO, a 2 stroke is a hoot to ride. The power is snappy, crisp, and the bike feels super light! not to mention they sound amazing, as opposed to the garden tractorish 4 strokes that everyone is riding.
Your missing the whole point of why a four stroke is a better track engine, if we were racing dyno's which are a tool it would be different story.
I think a new 250F is more fun to ride than a two stroke. The new gen four strokes outhandle the two strokes and are just as flickable so to me the fun factor is a wash.
Hi Im Skyqe wrote:
What is the duration of the TQ and HP on the two stroke? Unless you have a CVT drive system where you can effectively control your RPM's peak numbers mean shit its all about having more useful TQ and HP at all ranges vs a peaky curve..
OTP was talking about peak Torque.
This is completely unrelated to technicality, but lets be serious. What is more fun to ride? a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke? and please give your reasoning.
IMO, a 2 stroke is a hoot to ride. The power is snappy, crisp, and the bike feels super light! not to mention they sound amazing, as opposed to the garden tractorish 4 strokes that everyone is riding.
Your missing the whole point of why a four stroke is a better track engine, if we were racing dyno's which are a tool it would be different story.
I think a new 250F is more fun to ride than a two stroke. The new gen four strokes outhandle the two strokes and are just as flickable so to me the fun factor is a wash.
Quick question. Have you owned and ridden a 2 stroke that is set up for yourself? was it a 125 or a 250?
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