Political Debate Thread

I've heard conversation coming out of animal pens that is more intelligent than what is going on in here.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

Remember when conservatives like us used to laugh at anti-vax liberal wackos like RFK Jr? It was so great when my side was right most of the time! Now RFK Jr would fit right in at CPAC.
DBRider251 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:48 pm My problem with the mandate is the lack of available long term effect studies. The estimated study completion dates are anywhere from October 2022 to January 2023. As someone who wants kids and has Guillian-Barre and heart problems that run in my family, I want every possible side effect known before I take this vaccine that could possibly sterilize, paralyze, or kill me.

Pfizer and Moderna both can cause myocarditis and pericarditis in male adolescents and young adults.

Even with the risk being low, J&J has been cited to possibly cause Guillian-Barre. Permanent nerve damage and possibly paralysis isn't on my checklist of things to do in life. One of the reasons I don't ride much anymore.

No effect of fertilization and sterility problems have come out. I still want research to finish before I get them because I want to be able to have my own kids.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. If you want to get it, go ahead. I don't care. But don't force it on me before I'm ready and all the studies have been completed.
The myocarditis side effect is like 1 in 100,000. In the 30-39 age range 12,930 out of 44 million Americans have died of Covid 19. Around 1 in 3400. You're way more likely to die of Covid 19 than have a side effect from the vaccine. It's been tested on hundreds of millions of people now.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

It's so DeSantis anyway, how could you possibly stretch your imagination soooo far as to him going with the status quo of the New Moron Republic and doubling down to try and ban all vaccines. "I have an immune system ANNNNND not a single roundworm!" lol Please link some OAN ivermectin stories bro. That's how you REALLY get to the truth. Remember, you can't post anything on the internet if it isn't true. :idea:
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

NOT you JLV. Fail.
jlv wrote:If it weren't for Havoc I'd have been arguing with the 12 year olds by myself.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

jlv wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:01 am Remember when conservatives like us used to laugh at anti-vax liberal wackos like RFK Jr? It was so great when my side was right most of the time! Now RFK Jr would fit right in at CPAC.

[quote=DBRider251 post_id=897031 time=<a href="tel:1636559329">1636559329</a> user_id=10178]
My problem with the mandate is the lack of available long term effect studies. The estimated study completion dates are anywhere from October 2022 to January 2023. As someone who wants kids and has Guillian-Barre and heart problems that run in my family, I want every possible side effect known before I take this vaccine that could possibly sterilize, paralyze, or kill me.

Pfizer and Moderna both can cause myocarditis and pericarditis in male adolescents and young adults.

Even with the risk being low, J&J has been cited to possibly cause Guillian-Barre. Permanent nerve damage and possibly paralysis isn't on my checklist of things to do in life. One of the reasons I don't ride much anymore.

No effect of fertilization and sterility problems have come out. I still want research to finish before I get them because I want to be able to have my own kids.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. If you want to get it, go ahead. I don't care. But don't force it on me before I'm ready and all the studies have been completed.
The myocarditis side effect is like 1 in 100,000. In the 30-39 age range 12,930 out of 44 million Americans have died of Covid 19. Around 1 in 3400. You're way more likely to die of Covid 19 than have a side effect from the vaccine. It's been tested on hundreds of millions of people now.
[/quote]

Should we use data like this now knowing what we know? It is clear the virus predominantly effects those who are generally unhealthy and obese. I haven’t seen many statistics that show the same with myocarditis. I have read there is an abnormal increase in sudden cardiac arrests in high performing athletes..

Not to mention the very nature of myocarditis, I don’t think it would be a stretch to assume its under reported. Even more so in terms of an adverse effect.

Would it also be fair to say COVID deaths are over reported? Or are we in the understanding that the only valid data is data in which supports the narrative, and data that goes against the vaccines (i.e. VAERS) is not?

All that aside, this still doesn’t really address the deferral of long-term studies nor fertility concerns. Unknowns are risky. Short-term observations are not indications of complete safety.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:17 am It's so DeSantis anyway, how could you possibly stretch your imagination soooo far as to him going with the status quo of the New Moron Republic and doubling down to try and ban all vaccines. "I have an immune system ANNNNND not a single roundworm!" lol Please link some OAN ivermectin stories bro. That's how you REALLY get to the truth. Remember, you can't post anything on the internet if it isn't true. :idea:
SB2 and HB 1B would require employers to give staff five reasons to opt out of a COVID-19 vaccine mandate, including pregnancy, expected pregnancy, religious reasons or immunity from previous infection as determined by a lab test, as well as those who are willing to be tested periodically and wear PPE.

Employers who fire people for refusing to get vaccinated would be fined up to $50,000, unless the employees are reinstated.
SB 4B and HB 3B would give a public records exemption to workers' medical and religious information in cases where their employer is being investigated for violating the opt-out law.

SB 6B and HB 5B would lay the groundwork for Florida to withdraw from the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration and start its own occupational safety and health issues administration.

SB 8B and HB 7B would delete the provision in a Florida law that allows the state health officer to mandate vaccines during a public health emergency.
From local Tampa Bay news. He very well could have made claims as you stated, idk, just putting this here so everyone can see that actual proposed legislation.

Im not entirely sure how one can reintroduce an extinct entity. Interesting thought, is it sensical to reevaluate current vaccine requirements? I don’t really have thoughts on this, just thinking out loud. If the disease has been defeated to extinction, do we still need to require its vaccination?

I think its important to establish that skepticism on the COVID19 vaccines does NOT equal anti-vaxxer. Lets actually try keeping this conversation constructive.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

Like a lot of things that get blown way out of proportion, someone saw that trace amounts of mercury were used as preservatives in some vaccines and the next thing you know we got Jenny McCarthy opening her mouth for other reasons than it's good for. Of course it was a false correlation as has been used hundreds of time during this pandemic. We pick and choose what we go off on.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by DBRider251 »

jlv wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:01 am Remember when conservatives like us used to laugh at anti-vax liberal wackos like RFK Jr? It was so great when my side was right most of the time! Now RFK Jr would fit right in at CPAC.
DBRider251 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:48 pm My problem with the mandate is the lack of available long term effect studies. The estimated study completion dates are anywhere from October 2022 to January 2023. As someone who wants kids and has Guillian-Barre and heart problems that run in my family, I want every possible side effect known before I take this vaccine that could possibly sterilize, paralyze, or kill me.

Pfizer and Moderna both can cause myocarditis and pericarditis in male adolescents and young adults.

Even with the risk being low, J&J has been cited to possibly cause Guillian-Barre. Permanent nerve damage and possibly paralysis isn't on my checklist of things to do in life. One of the reasons I don't ride much anymore.

No effect of fertilization and sterility problems have come out. I still want research to finish before I get them because I want to be able to have my own kids.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. If you want to get it, go ahead. I don't care. But don't force it on me before I'm ready and all the studies have been completed.
The myocarditis side effect is like 1 in 100,000. In the 30-39 age range 12,930 out of 44 million Americans have died of Covid 19. Around 1 in 3400. You're way more likely to die of Covid 19 than have a side effect from the vaccine. It's been tested on hundreds of millions of people now.
I've had and fought off COVID in college and also rarely go outside my house because I work from home. The only time I go somewhere is to my family's house or to get groceries, and I usually utilize something like Walmart pickup or something anyway unless I need something not available in their pickup just due to the convenience. Everyone's situation is different, and I wholeheartedly believe I do not need the vaccine that, even in extreme circumstance, causes issues.

All of that said, my biggest fear is sterilization. And there is nothing out about that yet.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

m121c wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:05 am Should we use data like this now knowing what we know? It is clear the virus predominantly effects those who are generally unhealthy and obese. I haven’t seen many statistics that show the same with myocarditis. I have read there is an abnormal increase in sudden cardiac arrests in high performing athletes..

Not to mention the very nature of myocarditis, I don’t think it would be a stretch to assume its under reported. Even more so in terms of an adverse effect.

Would it also be fair to say COVID deaths are over reported? Or are we in the understanding that the only valid data is data in which supports the narrative, and data that goes against the vaccines (i.e. VAERS) is not?

All that aside, this still doesn’t really address the deferral of long-term studies nor fertility concerns. Unknowns are risky. Short-term observations are not indications of complete safety.
There are around 20% more excess deaths since the beginning of last year that haven't been attributed to Covid 19. So Covid 19 deaths are probably under counted by around that percentage. So closer to around 1 million dead instead of the official 780k number.
m121c wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:55 pm I think its important to establish that skepticism on the COVID19 vaccines does NOT equal anti-vaxxer. Lets actually try keeping this conversation constructive.
"Just asking questions." I've heard that a lot of times before and it was always defending something insane. We used to laugh at this dipshit for good reasons. Don't go full RFK.

We're talking about vaccines that have literally been tested on hundreds of millions of people now. If it was sterilizing people it would have been noticed by now.
DBRider251 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:10 pm I've had and fought off COVID in college and also rarely go outside my house because I work from home. The only time I go somewhere is to my family's house or to get groceries, and I usually utilize something like Walmart pickup or something anyway unless I need something not available in their pickup just due to the convenience. Everyone's situation is different, and I wholeheartedly believe I do not need the vaccine that, even in extreme circumstance, causes issues.

All of that said, my biggest fear is sterilization. And there is nothing out about that yet.
If you've already been infected the vaccine isn't as important for you, but by getting infected you were at thousands of times more risk than a vaccine.

Organ damage caused by COVID-19
"Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can also damage many other organs, including the heart, kidneys and the brain. Organ damage may lead to health complications that linger after COVID-19 illness. In some people, lasting health effects may include long-term breathing problems, heart complications, chronic kidney impairment, stroke and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis."

One thing I will say in favor of the pro Covid spreading faction, I don't believe we should be forcing masks or other protective measures on the unvaccinated anymore. That just delays things and keeps Covid going. I'd rather they were all infected immediately so we can have herd immunity one way or another. If they clog up the hospitals they should just discharge whoever has the best chance of surviving.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Pumaxcs »

I hope my vaccine caused sterilization.

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jlv wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:09 am Pumaxcs would know better than I do.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

jlv wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:13 am [quote=m121c post_id=897050 time=<a href="tel:1636603502">1636603502</a> user_id=4369]
Should we use data like this now knowing what we know? It is clear the virus predominantly effects those who are generally unhealthy and obese. I haven’t seen many statistics that show the same with myocarditis. I have read there is an abnormal increase in sudden cardiac arrests in high performing athletes..

Not to mention the very nature of myocarditis, I don’t think it would be a stretch to assume its under reported. Even more so in terms of an adverse effect.

Would it also be fair to say COVID deaths are over reported? Or are we in the understanding that the only valid data is data in which supports the narrative, and data that goes against the vaccines (i.e. VAERS) is not?

All that aside, this still doesn’t really address the deferral of long-term studies nor fertility concerns. Unknowns are risky. Short-term observations are not indications of complete safety.
There are around 20% more excess deaths since the beginning of last year that haven't been attributed to Covid 19. So Covid 19 deaths are probably under counted by around that percentage. So closer to around 1 million dead instead of the official 780k number.

[quote=m121c post_id=897055 time=<a href="tel:1636642501">1636642501</a> user_id=4369]
I think its important to establish that skepticism on the COVID19 vaccines does NOT equal anti-vaxxer. Lets actually try keeping this conversation constructive.
[/quote]
"Just asking questions." I've heard that a lot of times before and it was always defending something insane. We used to laugh at this dipshit for good reasons. Don't go full RFK.

We're talking about vaccines that have literally been tested on hundreds of millions of people now. If it was sterilizing people it would have been noticed by now.

[quote=DBRider251 post_id=897064 time=<a href="tel:1636668616">1636668616</a> user_id=10178]
I've had and fought off COVID in college and also rarely go outside my house because I work from home. The only time I go somewhere is to my family's house or to get groceries, and I usually utilize something like Walmart pickup or something anyway unless I need something not available in their pickup just due to the convenience. Everyone's situation is different, and I wholeheartedly believe I do not need the vaccine that, even in extreme circumstance, causes issues.

All of that said, my biggest fear is sterilization. And there is nothing out about that yet.
[/quote]
If you've already been infected the vaccine isn't as important for you, but by getting infected you were at thousands of times more risk than a vaccine.

Organ damage caused by COVID-19
"Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can also damage many other organs, including the heart, kidneys and the brain. Organ damage may lead to health complications that linger after COVID-19 illness. In some people, lasting health effects may include long-term breathing problems, heart complications, chronic kidney impairment, stroke and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis."

One thing I will say in favor of the pro Covid spreading faction, I don't believe we should be forcing masks or other protective measures on the unvaccinated anymore. That just delays things and keeps Covid going. I'd rather they were all infected immediately so we can have herd immunity one way or another. If they clog up the hospitals they should just discharge whoever has the best chance of surviving.
[/quote]

Being skeptical of this vaccine (something that was the norm just a year ago) is now defending something insane? Come on man’.

Haven’t heard of adverse effects sterilization? Not like theres no evidence of active suppression and aggression towards any view point that isn’t double masking and popping vaccine shots like its a daily half tablet of xannax. :roll:

Its odd to me the bulk of research (and the press thereof) is overwhelming about COVID and its side effects. However, little to nome of that same attention is really applied to the effects of the vaccines. Im all for understanding the disease, but we need to understand the vaccine as well.

What a terrible scientific experiment to just say “hey millions have the vaccine and only a small percent died”. Atleast I know the risks I face getting Covid, you can do all the cheap arguments you want but none of them can say where this is going in 5 years.

Im glad you decided the vaccine was safe for you. I obviously associate a higher risk to unknowns.

And to your final comment: your herd immunity is a fallacy. Experts have long projected there is no end to this, just a transition to a new seasonal illness. Still kind of a fucked up way of looking at things.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

I should stop typing on my phone.. always messing up quotes lol
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

m121c wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:50 am What a terrible scientific experiment to just say “hey millions have the vaccine and only a small percent died”. Atleast I know the risks I face getting Covid, you can do all the cheap arguments you want but none of them can say where this is going in 5 years.
This is insane. You're obsessing over .001% probability side effects from the vaccines and ignoring a .5% probability of *death* if you catch covid. You know how people with covid report loss of taste and smell? That's not because it affects your nose. It affects your *brain*. To make a risk assessment between the vaccine and actually being infected and concluding getting infected is less of a risk is just totally nuts.

The infertility claims are nonsense. You should question the credibility of whoever is pushing it.

Research Studies in People Trying to Become Pregnant
There is currently no evidence that antibodies made following COVID-19 vaccination or that vaccine ingredients would cause any problems with becoming pregnant now or in the future. In a recent in vitro fertilization (a type of fertility treatment) study, researchers compared pregnancy success rates among three groups of women.

Women with:

Antibodies from having been vaccinated against COVID-19
Antibodies from having a recent infection with the virus that causes COVID-19
No antibodies from either having a recent infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 or from having been vaccinated against COVID-19
The study found no differences in pregnancy success rates among the three groups.11

Like with all vaccines, scientists are studying COVID-19 vaccines carefully for side effects and will report findings as they become available.

Research Studies of Fertility in Healthy Males
Currently no evidence shows that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, cause male fertility problems. A recent small study of 45 healthy men who received an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (i.e., Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) looked at sperm characteristics, like quantity and movement, before and after vaccination.12 Researchers found no significant changes in these sperm characteristics after vaccination.

Fever from illness has been associated with short-term decrease in sperm production in healthy men.13 Although fever can be a side effect of COVID-19 vaccination, there is no current evidence that fever after COVID-vaccination affects sperm production.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by baker »

m121c wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:51 am I should stop typing on my phone.. always messing up quotes lol
It’s hard ain’t it? That’s usually how I post on the forums and quoting others is awful.

What I feel a little bad about is saying a few we need a pandemic to lower the population because it’s growing at such a substantial rate, the environment won’t always support the population. I didn’t mean this… 🙄

I think a lot of the resistance to vaccination lies in the mandates and overbearingly pushing it to those who don’t immediately get it. A large percentage of people simply don’t respect being told what decisions they should make. It’s also worsened in the US by the political division we have. Both parties have an increasing rift in bipartisan efforts. If trump did the mandate, the left would oppose vaccination. Biden made the mandate, and a large percentage of the right opposes vaccination.
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nathanjames wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:32 pm Classic Miami...
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

jlv wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:29 am [quote=m121c post_id=897070 time=<a href="tel:1636681831">1636681831</a> user_id=4369]
What a terrible scientific experiment to just say “hey millions have the vaccine and only a small percent died”. Atleast I know the risks I face getting Covid, you can do all the cheap arguments you want but none of them can say where this is going in 5 years.
This is insane. You're obsessing over .001% probability side effects from the vaccines and ignoring a .5% probability of *death* if you catch covid. You know how people with covid report loss of taste and smell? That's not because it affects your nose. It affects your *brain*. To make a risk assessment between the vaccine and actually being infected and concluding getting infected is less of a risk is just totally nuts.

The infertility claims are nonsense. You should question the credibility of whoever is pushing it.

Research Studies in People Trying to Become Pregnant
There is currently no evidence that antibodies made following COVID-19 vaccination or that vaccine ingredients would cause any problems with becoming pregnant now or in the future. In a recent in vitro fertilization (a type of fertility treatment) study, researchers compared pregnancy success rates among three groups of women.

Women with:

Antibodies from having been vaccinated against COVID-19
Antibodies from having a recent infection with the virus that causes COVID-19
No antibodies from either having a recent infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 or from having been vaccinated against COVID-19
The study found no differences in pregnancy success rates among the three groups.11

Like with all vaccines, scientists are studying COVID-19 vaccines carefully for side effects and will report findings as they become available.

Research Studies of Fertility in Healthy Males
Currently no evidence shows that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, cause male fertility problems. A recent small study of 45 healthy men who received an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (i.e., Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) looked at sperm characteristics, like quantity and movement, before and after vaccination.12 Researchers found no significant changes in these sperm characteristics after vaccination.

Fever from illness has been associated with short-term decrease in sperm production in healthy men.13 Although fever can be a side effect of COVID-19 vaccination, there is no current evidence that fever after COVID-vaccination affects sperm production.

[/quote]

Somethings are worth obsessing over. Now take you scary death rate and apply it to healthy 18-29 year olds who have a average BMI. I know you know there is a difference; you are a smart guy.

You only state present analysis... you have yet to address the deferment of long term studies.

The very fact you can tell me more about the disease and NOT the vaccine shows theres still a lot of work to be done before it can be considered low-risk (relatively). Now if you are looking at that data as you present it.. I guess your risk assessment makes sense. But unfortunately thats just not a really solid method for making inferences from data.

I really don’t understand why this gets so many people bunged up. You did your risk assessment, and I did mine. You clearly see it different than I do, and thats fine! Im not saying you shouldn’t have gotten the vaccine. I must say I didn’t really picture you putting big pharma on the poster for credibility and safety.

I have a problem with Pfizer posting earnings way out of there league and having zero liability for the product that resulted in that success. But ya... its just insane to ask questions.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

Seriously, I hit quote... so sorry :lol:
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