Political Debate Thread

I've heard conversation coming out of animal pens that is more intelligent than what is going on in here.
jlv
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

m121c wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:29 pm Josh, I want to respectfully say I think you are using data incorrectly. If the whole basis of your argument is on the numbers, you should easily understand why I have uncertainty about all of it.

I will stand by idea that this vaccine is unprecedented, and in no way like any other in history. All of which I have had.

Regardless, just because YOU associate a higher risk to Covid, doesn’t mean I do, and I don’t think the numbers call for a one size fits all mandate through federal coercion.
It is just numbers. 1 in 100000 chance of a non-fatal side effect with the vaccine vs 1 in 200 of death with the virus. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact and as you know, facts don't care about your feelings.

I know you're about to say, "it's less deadly in young people!" Sure, but the death rate in people in their 20's is still higher than the side effect rate of the vaccine by an order of magnitude.

Also, you'd have to be a complete sociopath to not care about spreading the disease to immunocompromised people just because you personally aren't likely to die.
m121c wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:29 pm
jlv wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:34 am This is just silly. You're linking an article about a contaminated vaccine.
Im betting the people who took that vaccine over that several year period don’t find it to be silly. I also would think they had no idea they were taking a contaminated vaccine, and Im sure no else did either.
If someone spills cyanide in your corn flakes, that's tragic. It doesn't mean corn flakes in general are unsafe. You're making an RFK Jr style argument.
m121c wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:29 pm Likely to damage the brain of whom? Everyone? To what extent? What is “likely”? You act as if healthy people haven’t gone in to get their vaccine and died. In any other circumstance we would think this is odd and unacceptable if we were talking about federally mandating it as a blanket solution.
Hard to find good numbers on this. It says up to a third here. I know I see people reporting brain fog and loss of smell all over the place so that doesn't seem out of line to me.

The paper for the initial brain loss study is here. But it's comparing covid vs control. It doesn't break down percentages that had loss of brain mass. There is a histogram at the end but I'm not sure what it represents.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

jlv wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:13 am It is just numbers. 1 in 100000 chance of a non-fatal side effect with the vaccine vs 1 in 200 of death with the virus. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact and as you know, facts don't care about your feelings.

I know you're about to say, "it's less deadly in young people!" Sure, but the death rate in people in their 20's is still higher than the side effect rate of the vaccine by an order of magnitude.
Your order of magnitude is quickly lost if you choose to believe that VAERS only accounts for 1% of adverse effects as studies suggest. Conservatively lets say 10%... or do want to only believe the data you use to base your argument in is a reliable population of data?

Now we should shoot this vaxx into children who statistically have a 0 in the risk area. This is the next generation of our country, and we want to basically push an experiment on to them. This country has lost its mind.
jlv wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:13 am Also, you'd have to be a complete sociopath to not care about spreading the disease to immunocompromised people just because you personally aren't likely to die.
Never said that, and this is a terrible generalization. The vaccine is widely available for those who want it/need it, and it protects them. There are plenty of other mitigations one can take to protect an immune compromised. Something that has always been done throughout time. I wouldn’t blame them for not wanting the vaxx or not able to take it, but we still have other methods in which we can protect ourselves and others. There are also therapeutics that are show to weaken the effects/symtoms of COVID. Again, if you choose to look at such a view.
jlv wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:13 am If someone spills cyanide in your corn flakes, that's tragic. It doesn't mean corn flakes in general are unsafe. You're making an RFK Jr style argument.
You either missed the point or dodged it. My argument will never be a RFK Jr style as you characterize. My point is, there is a culture around this vaccine (historically vaccines in general) where the attention is less served on areas that could slow the momentum down on vaccination.

Let me repeat, Im not saying the corn flakes aren’t safe, my point being there is less attention on making sure the corn flakes do not have cyanide. How is it at any point a good idea for Drs to avoid reporting? The CDC pretty much said VAERS is a high school data project? Osha doesn’t want adverse event reporting? FDA is approving a drug whos long-term studies have been deferred for 3-4 years in an attempt to boost vaccination rates?

And we want the federal government to be able to mandate this? Luckily at least one of the EO’s have been stayed. You should at the very least be championing for our constitution, after all you still are a conservative right?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by DBRider251 »

I remember when we were all called crazy when all this started for saying the government had gained too much power and was going to start drastically overreaching. Now people want the overreach.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

m121c wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:12 pm
jlv wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:13 am Also, you'd have to be a complete sociopath to not care about spreading the disease to immunocompromised people just because you personally aren't likely to die.
Never said that, and this is a terrible generalization. The vaccine is widely available for those who want it/need it, and it protects them. There are plenty of other mitigations one can take to protect an immune compromised. Something that has always been done throughout time. I wouldn’t blame them for not wanting the vaxx or not able to take it, but we still have other methods in which we can protect ourselves and others. There are also therapeutics that are show to weaken the effects/symtoms of COVID. Again, if you choose to look at such a view.
If you're immunocompromised you won't have a good antibody response to the vaccine. Look at what happened to Colin Powell with his blood cancer. I'm not super religious but I figure Jesus would want me to take a miniscule risk and suffer minor inconveniences to protect people like that. Also, I'm not a sociopath.
m121c wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:12 pm
jlv wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:13 am If someone spills cyanide in your corn flakes, that's tragic. It doesn't mean corn flakes in general are unsafe. You're making an RFK Jr style argument.
You either missed the point or dodged it. My argument will never be a RFK Jr style as you characterize. My point is, there is a culture around this vaccine (historically vaccines in general) where the attention is less served on areas that could slow the momentum down on vaccination.

Let me repeat, Im not saying the corn flakes aren’t safe, my point being there is less attention on making sure the corn flakes do not have cyanide. How is it at any point a good idea for Drs to avoid reporting? The CDC pretty much said VAERS is a high school data project? Osha doesn’t want adverse event reporting? FDA is approving a drug whos long-term studies have been deferred for 3-4 years in an attempt to boost vaccination rates?
Using a 50 year old accident to cast doubt on all vaccines is definitely RFK territory. There's more risk of getting contanimated chicken than contanimated vaccines. Pretending that VAERS is the only testing done when the vaccine went through clinical trials with tens of thousands of people is also a bad faith RFK style argument. You're an full blown anti-vaxxer. There's no getting around it.

It's funny how you can be super skeptical about vaccines while at the same time you have blind faith that the actual disease has no long term effects.
m121c wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:12 pm And we want the federal government to be able to mandate this? Luckily at least one of the EO’s have been stayed. You should at the very least be championing for our constitution, after all you still are a conservative right?
I don't think the founders would have any problem with vaccine mandates.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

Never really thought Id see a conversation get steered this way by you. Now are just making wild assumptions that just make you look foolish and making this personal.

Not an ant-vaxxer, I have all my vaccinations.VAERS isn’t testing. Saying vaccination is the only way way to protect the immunocompromised in this situation is a intentional bad faith straw man. I also never stated I believe COVID doesn’t have long term effects. Tested on tens of thousands of people... in a short period of time! You still yet to address if you associate risk to a new drug that has skipped any long-term study. Remember when this all started and the CDC was trying to tell us this was all going to take years to go through the correct process?

You want to get on my case because I used a time in history that showed a vaccine accident (That went on for years unchecked and we largely don’t understand the consequences of)? Yet you link a historical article about how George Washington saw an importance in vaccinating an federal army to support the argument that he would somehow support the federal government mandating an experimental vaccine on an entire population including children? The echo-chamber is LOUD.

You are having a havoc-like moment, and you are clearly emotionally involved in this debate. You can’t make a point without deflecting away from my points, insulting me, or assuming my argument is something it isn’t.

Maybe you are becoming more of liberal?
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

You spew pages of relentless denial.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by InsaneFMX »

m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am You are having a havoc-like moment, and you are clearly emotionally involved in this debate. You can’t make a point without deflecting away from my points, insulting me, or assuming my argument is something it isn’t.
All vaccines, medications, and practically the majority of the mental health sector as a whole is an experiment. That's how medicine works. Test, if it passes, distribute, if complications araise recall and change method. That's the best we monkey brains got right now. The smallpox vaccine was opposed back then as the covid vaccine is now over the same ideas. The fact that George Washington mandated it is your hint that it's no different: No opposition allowed from a founding father. Mason, you haven't once defended your ideas once challenged directly against them and resort to personal shaming every time. That's your defense mechanism. Just admit you don't know like the rest of us and follow the actual experts, let go of the paranoia. Being the "black sheep" isn't always a good thing, and that's coming from the autistic FMX enthusiast, political poetic (wannabe)astrophysicist. We don't know the long term effects of a lot of things, but we can still infer information from the short hand studies. That is the scientific method. And don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of how corrupt and misleading governments, including the US and Canada's, can be. But political targeting
m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am Maybe you are becoming more of liberal?
shows you aren't using science to think about it, but your beliefs. And there is plenty of data in favour of the vaccine as always.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by Pumaxcs »

I was sent a video of Candy Owens claiming some World Economic Forum planned Covid when they ran simulations on how it would affect the world and are now running tests against a world power grid failure so that is the next government attack vector. It also had something to do with a computer virus that brings down all OS's and networks. If you guys are looking for a topic change, there is that.
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jlv wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:09 am Pumaxcs would know better than I do.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

I'd really like to see Mason formulate a coherent response to what amounts to a check mate in less than two pages. JLV dropped the mic on this one.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

InsaneFMX wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:36 am
m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am You are having a havoc-like moment, and you are clearly emotionally involved in this debate. You can’t make a point without deflecting away from my points, insulting me, or assuming my argument is something it isn’t.
All vaccines, medications, and practically the majority of the mental health sector as a whole is an experiment. That's how medicine works. Test, if it passes, distribute, if complications araise recall and change method. That's the best we monkey brains got right now. The smallpox vaccine was opposed back then as the covid vaccine is now over the same ideas. The fact that George Washington mandated it is your hint that it's no different: No opposition allowed from a founding father. Mason, you haven't once defended your ideas once challenged directly against them and resort to personal shaming every time. That's your defense mechanism. Just admit you don't know like the rest of us and follow the actual experts, let go of the paranoia. Being the "black sheep" isn't always a good thing, and that's coming from the autistic FMX enthusiast, political poetic (wannabe)astrophysicist. We don't know the long term effects of a lot of things, but we can still infer information from the short hand studies. That is the scientific method. And don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of how corrupt and misleading governments, including the US and Canada's, can be. But political targeting
m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am Maybe you are becoming more of liberal?
shows you aren't using science to think about it, but your beliefs. And there is plenty of data in favour of the vaccine as always.
I might be a “black sheep” around here, and thats okay. Im comfortable with my ideas. I try my best to see things from multiple angles and make my own conclusion. Im not always certain on my position, but ones I am, I feel strong about. I am also comfortable in conceding when I have been presented an argument I feel is better than mine.

Im very aware of the scientific method and what an experiment is. Its interesting when people want to follow the experts when its something easy and something they want. It’s also always interesting when its something thats agreed on, that person seemingly thinks all the experts are on their side. That is using emotion.

I don’t dislike any of you, well maybe Havoc.

My last comment was a purposeful dig at Josh due to his previous comments. I admit, political conversation should not go such a way, but I guess I can only put up so many loosely directed troll comments.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by jlv »

We've already done these arguments.
m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am Not an ant-vaxxer, I have all my vaccinations.VAERS isn’t testing. Saying vaccination is the only way way to protect the immunocompromised in this situation is a intentional bad faith straw man. I also never stated I believe COVID doesn’t have long term effects.
m121c wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:50 am Atleast I know the risks I face getting Covid, you can do all the cheap arguments you want but none of them can say where this is going in 5 years.
.
m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am Tested on tens of thousands of people... in a short period of time! You still yet to address if you associate risk to a new drug that has skipped any long-term study.
jlv wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 am If the covid vaccine has long term side effects, it would be the first time that has ever happened in any vaccine.
.
m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am You want to get on my case because I used a time in history that showed a vaccine accident (That went on for years unchecked and we largely don’t understand the consequences of)? Yet you link a historical article about how George Washington saw an importance in vaccinating an federal army to support the argument that he would somehow support the federal government mandating an experimental vaccine on an entire population including children? The echo-chamber is LOUD.
You questioned the constitutionality of a vaccine mandate:
m121c wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:12 pm And we want the federal government to be able to mandate this? Luckily at least one of the EO’s have been stayed. You should at the very least be championing for our constitution, after all you still are a conservative right?
I showed you that one of the founding fathers imposed a vaccine mandate.
m121c wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am You are having a havoc-like moment, and you are clearly emotionally involved in this debate. You can’t make a point without deflecting away from my points, insulting me, or assuming my argument is something it isn’t.

Maybe you are becoming more of liberal?
If wanting to spread disease is conservative I guess you've got me here. I think you should take a hard look at the people you're listening to and consider whether they still represent the values they had when you started with them.

I saw someone make a great point about Rush Limbaugh. He basically said, "Rush taught me well enough to know when to stop listening to him." For me that moment was when Rush did a monologue on how great populism is and how we should basically forget about conservatism. I was already getting annoyed at how he was attacking Cruz and saying what a clever liar Trump was up to that point (this was during the 2016 primary), but that was the last show I listened to. Sometimes you have to leave if the crowd is going in the wrong direction.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by TeamHavocRacing »

jlv wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:15 am...a monologue on how great populism is and how we should basically forget about conservatism.
...and democracy as well. That's totalitarianism and/or authoritarianism. "But we don't want to agree with Antifa!" So, you wanna be a fascist then? At all costs to prevent sounding the least bit liberal? That's what I've observed. I'm in machining and you'd have a hard time finding many liberals there so it's easy to get a good read.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

TeamHavocRacing wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:02 am [quote=jlv post_id=897218 time=<a href="tel:1637198155">1637198155</a> user_id=2]...a monologue on how great populism is and how we should basically forget about conservatism.
...and democracy as well. That's totalitarianism and/or authoritarianism. "But we don't want to agree with Antifa!" So, you wanna be a fascist then? At all costs to prevent sounding the least bit liberal? That's what I've observed. I'm in machining and you'd have a hard time finding many liberals there so it's easy to get a good read.
[/quote]

Antifa is pro-authoritarian... awkward.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by m121c »

I really have no idea why that does that on my phone. I hit quote and hit submit...
jlv wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:15 am I showed you that one of the founding fathers imposed a vaccine mandate.
A vaccine mandate on a federal army is very different in my opinion. How do you take that, and say it is okay for an entire population plus children?
jlv wrote: If wanting to spread disease is conservative I guess you've got me here. I think you should take a hard look at the people you're listening to and consider whether they still represent the values they had when you started with them.
I would like to know who you think I listen to? Is it really that hard to believe Ive done my own research from both sides of the coin? Have you?

Something tells me you have on some bias glasses.
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Re: Political Debate Thread

Post by DBRider251 »

jlv wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:15 am Sometimes you have to leave if the crowd is going in the wrong direction.
But it’s not the crowd, it’s the loud. The loudest people are the ones heard because they make the news. Then both sides of the aisle blow it out of proportion and make them look like a saint or a demon. You know as well as I do that the radical portion of each party is what’s shown.

They use that to create division. Division is created to control the masses.
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