jlv wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:48 am
m121c wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:38 am
I know I said I’d leave it... but when you say America isn’t the “freest”, there are reasons why our Covid response is not like NZ, Australia, Austria, Germany, Canada, and so many other countries.
Deaths per Million:
USA: 2,466
NZ: 9
AU: 82
Also, since they basically eradicated it, Australia and NZ didn't have lockdowns or masks for most of the pandemic. (That's just what I heard somewhere so if anyone has first hand knowledge feel free to correct me.)
Why did you choose to leave out Canada, Austria, and Germany? How is death per million stats a benchmark of freedom? I wouldn't really call it eradication, they have done a great job mitigating infection of the more deadly strains early on. I'd say they have certain advantages, especially NZ being it's small population and isolation. Luckily for them, this virus seems to be getting weaker with every variant, so by the time they do let their citizens get back to normal it will just be a mild cold for the entire population. Hopefully their governments will relinquish that power... me things countries like Canada will have a hard time doing that.
Last I checked we don't have Covid quarantine camps, repeated lock downs, and our borders are relatively open (especially if you look at our southern one).
Boblob801 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:57 am
Yeah in Nz we had the initial lockdown. Span 5 weeks I think. This was at the start of 2020 (A lovely holiday, if I say so). From then on it was just back to normal, no masks, nothing. Then we had a second lockdown middle of this year, went for a few weeks then we went back to a restricted life. We had to wear masks, social distance, reduced capacity, etc. However, Auckland stayed in lockdown for a considerable amount of time, months. Things are somewhat back to normal again. We have to wear masks still. Capacity and social distancing for the majority of NZ are gone.... mostly. Auckland still has to adhere to these restrictions for now.
So 8-10 weeks of lockdowns country wide, more time spent restricted (while parts saw much longer lockdowns)? I have some people that relocated to Aus that I follow on social media, it seemed every time they turned around they were in lockdowns? All of that for your highest case rate of 200 people? That is a proportional government response?
I will say though, taking a look at the NZ website, it is refreshing the detailed plans that laid out your goals and priorities. Something our country lacked severely.
I'm not really aware of NZ as a country really, so this is a genuine question, outside of the obvious mental/physical effects these measures have on people, has there any been any other effects from these measures? Like in the US, our employment and inflation is really causing some suffering.
Here in the midwest, we "locked down" for 2 weeks at the very start, had to wear masks in certain stores for the summer, and have been living normal life since that point. The only time it seems there is a pandemic is when you venture into a blue state, large city like I live in now, or have kids in the public education system. Really the only thing that has had an impact were the last two EO's from Biden, which have seemingly met their rightful termination. (I'm aware that the federal contractor is only a hold at the moment)
jlv wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:48 am
Libertarian means limited government - as small as possible, but no smaller. You can do what you want so long as it doesn't affect others. If you do things like spread disease a libertarian government should stop you. You're sounding more like an anarchist than libertarian or conservative.
Do you think Typhoid Mary did anything wrong? Was the government wrong to institutionalize her?
m121c wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:53 am
Far from reality hypothetical but sure on liability, no on the reasonable measure being vaccination.
We’d have to agree on the reasonable measure as the scape goat of liability, and something tells me we wouldn’t be able to do that.
Do I think it should happen? No. I mean it could, but should the civil courts be jammed up because I want my coworker to pay the fee for my copay visit to the Dr because they had a cold two days earlier?
Not to mention the strictness that would be needed for proof. But I guess if you could check all that off and get in front of a judge who will listen, ya sure.
I mean we are the USA, wacky court cases are kinda our thing.
It'd be way more than the cost of a doctor visit. Say each person infects 5 others (R=5). After 4 generations of infection you've caused 625 cases. So with the overall death rate of .016 there'd be a 99.99% chance of a death in that group. Google tells me civil death damages are usually between $500,000 and $1,000,000. Assuming everyone in the chain of infection with the death would be on the hook for that, you'd end up liable for between a quarter or the full amount depending on which generation the death happened in. And that's not even counting ICU costs for the ones that didn't die. It'd be kind a like a reverse pyramid scheme. The free market version of a vaccine mandate.
Now like you said, this isn't possible because even if we didn't have non-existent contact tracing it'd still be hard to prove. But it shows the damage you cause by spreading it. The whole "I'll survive it so I don't care" thing is sociopathic.
What is considered a reasonable measure to not spread the disease, or be a "disease vector" as you put it? Where is this line of "Im trying to protect myself and others" meet the line of "I'll survive it so I don't care" mentality?
We do not disagree that the government should step in when what the individual wants to do effects others. However, just stating such a thing is very binary and not at all reflection of reality. As I stated earlier, the government actions needs to fit the situation, and we need to be diligent in defining the situation, the actions, etc.